'Tis the season... (Election season, that is)

rovercanus

Well-known member
Apr 24, 2004
9,651
246
I believe I've said it before but the Republicans are like a goldfish spilled from it's bowl. They're flopping on the floor gasping for breath. But I also think Trump is a Democrat plant so I guess I'm just wacko.
Anyway, vote Libertarian!
 

Howski

Well-known member
Oct 19, 2009
1,499
213
Alabama
I believe I've said it before but the Republicans are like a goldfish spilled from it's bowl. They're flopping on the floor gasping for breath. But I also think Trump is a Democrat plant so I guess I'm just wacko.
Anyway, vote Libertarian!

Right there with ya. Him being a plant would actually be one of the more believable things about his campaign
 

SCSL

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2005
4,144
152
The interesting thing about Trump's rise is how little impact it has had on the party. The GOP establishment, as manifestly disconnected as it is from its voter base, has done little to nothing to reconfigure itself. It's as if there has been no internal dialogue or soul searching whatsoever. They're all-in hoping for a Trump loss so they can point and say say "See!", and remain exactly the same. They're hoping to be able to wag a finger at the lumpen base voters, scold them, and get back to the business of cocktail parties and donations. But I suppose the incentives dictate this outcome.
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
The interesting thing about Trump's rise is how little impact it has had on the party. The GOP establishment, as manifestly disconnected as it is from its voter base, has done little to nothing to reconfigure itself. It's as if there has been no internal dialogue or soul searching whatsoever. They're all-in hoping for a Trump loss so they can point and say say "See!", and remain exactly the same. They're hoping to be able to wag a finger at the lumpen base voters, scold them, and get back to the business of cocktail parties and donations. But I suppose the incentives dictate this outcome.

Do you not know about the 2012 election "postmortem?"

It called for working on outreach to minorities, younger people. Trump's rise is going against all that.

And the "base" is the problem (as it was for the Democrats for the last 50 years - and to some extent today).

But, if you think that Trumpism is the way to win (or Tea party) national elections, that is, only support for over 40 white dudes, well...

Edit: Read pg 4 http://goproject.gop.com/rnc_growth_opportunity_book_2013.pdf

Public perception of the Party is at record lows. Young voters are increasingly rolling their eyes
at what the Party represents, and many minorities wrongly think that Republicans do not like them
or want them in the country. When someone rolls their eyes at us, they are not likely to open their
ears to us.
At the federal level, much of what Republicans are doing is not working beyond the core
constituencies that make up the Party. On the state level, however, it is a different story.
 

emmodg

Well-known member
Apr 17, 2006
4,273
1
We're watching a two parties finding it very hard to stay relevant. They don't reflect society, they slowly - and poorly I might add - respond to it. Everyday it seems there is a new "group" trying to swim in their respectively too small fishbowls. (To use Walter's analogy) I never thought that either party should be THE reason to vote for a man. I always believed that party affiliation was a "guideline" or "suggested road map" to help a man or woman navigate public service and to in turn help the voter "read" a candidate. It seems to me the political party(s) has become the puppet and the candidate the puppeteer. Too many people blindly vote for the party and not the candidate.
 

kk88rrc

Well-known member
...... I never thought that either party should be THE reason to vote for a man. I always believed that party affiliation was a "guideline" or "suggested road map" to help a man or woman navigate public service and to in turn help the voter "read" a candidate. It seems to me the political party(s) has become the puppet and the candidate the puppeteer. Too many people blindly vote for the party and not the candidate.

Thank you. :applause:
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
This election is not so much about a vote for Trump as it is a vote against HRC. The Trump campaign will begin to unleash blistering anti-Clinton ads beginning this Friday in the battleground states, and there is plenty of ammunition. A text message from inside the Trump Campaign said to a WAPO reporter on Tuesday this week, "Buckle Up".
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
We're watching a two parties finding it very hard to stay relevant. They don't reflect society, they slowly - and poorly I might add - respond to it. Everyday it seems there is a new "group" trying to swim in their respectively too small fishbowls. (To use Walter's analogy) I never thought that either party should be THE reason to vote for a man. I always believed that party affiliation was a "guideline" or "suggested road map" to help a man or woman navigate public service and to in turn help the voter "read" a candidate. It seems to me the political party(s) has become the puppet and the candidate the puppeteer. Too many people blindly vote for the party and not the candidate.

Trump is shaking this up and Priebus has been much more welcoming than the DNC was when Bernie got the royal shaft from the DNC. As pm told me in the 2012 thread, parties can change. Business as usual and the gravy train may be coming to an end for the GOP.
 

1920SF

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
2,705
1
NoVA
Trump better do something, as his projections right now point to a bloodbath-all of the GOP's own making, so it can be about HRC as much as anyone wants it to be but if you look at Nate Silver's #'s that isn't a compelling case given just how bad a candidate the right has in the fight.

In a broader sense, this is a great article: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/07/how-american-politics-went-insane/485570/


The salient points:
Our intricate, informal system of political intermediation, which took many decades to build, did not commit suicide or die of old age; we reformed it to death. For decades, well-meaning political reformers have attacked intermediaries as corrupt, undemocratic, unnecessary, or (usually) all of the above. Americans have been busy demonizing and disempowering political professionals and parties, which is like spending decades abusing and attacking your own immune system. Eventually, you will get sick.
The disorder has other causes, too: developments such as ideological polarization, the rise of social media, and the radicalization of the Republican base. But chaos syndrome compounds the effects of those developments, by impeding the task of organizing to counteract them. Insurgencies in presidential races and on Capitol Hill are nothing new, and they are not necessarily bad, as long as the governing process can accommodate them. Years before the Senate had to cope with Ted Cruz, it had to cope with Jesse Helms. The difference is that Cruz shut down the government, which Helms could not have done had he even imagined trying.
Like many disorders, chaos syndrome is self-reinforcing. It causes governmental dysfunction, which fuels public anger, which incites political disruption, which causes yet more governmental dysfunction.
 

ERover82

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2011
3,923
460
Darien Gap
As an independent I wonder what faults does HRC possess that would justify voting for a certifiable psychopath. I'm hoping to hear something incriminating beyond the dumb email and Bengazi 'scandals'.
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
As an independent I wonder what faults does HRC possess that would justify voting for a certifiable psychopath. I'm hoping to hear something incriminating beyond the dumb email and Bengazi 'scandals'.

Aside from continuing the economy crushing policies of the last 8+ years? If you're glued to the MSM for incriminating topics you're not going to find one. She has them all in her back pocket. She's not the nice little grandmother that everyone thinks. In fact, quite the opposite. Follow the money.
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
The salient points:
Our intricate, informal system of political intermediation, which took many decades to build, did not commit suicide or die of old age; we reformed it to death. For decades, well-meaning political reformers have attacked intermediaries as corrupt, undemocratic, unnecessary, or (usually) all of the above. Americans have been busy demonizing and disempowering political professionals and parties, which is like spending decades abusing and attacking your own immune system. Eventually, you will get sick.
The disorder has other causes, too: developments such as ideological polarization, the rise of social media, and the radicalization of the Republican base. But chaos syndrome compounds the effects of those developments, by impeding the task of organizing to counteract them. Insurgencies in presidential races and on Capitol Hill are nothing new, and they are not necessarily bad, as long as the governing process can accommodate them. Years before the Senate had to cope with Ted Cruz, it had to cope with Jesse Helms. The difference is that Cruz shut down the government, which Helms could not have done had he even imagined trying.
Like many disorders, chaos syndrome is self-reinforcing. It causes governmental dysfunction, which fuels public anger, which incites political disruption, which causes yet more governmental dysfunction.

This.

As was also pointed out, the parties are less relevant, and the candidates are more powerful in guiding their parties then they have been in the past. This is (largely) a result of the campaign finance laws preventing "coordination." We also see it in Congress where the party leaders have less influence over individual members (take away their chairmanships? put them on the dog catcher sub-sub-committee? Don't care). The other is clearly the rise of the internet giving every idiot (see: any Kardashian) a megaphone.

Trump has just used his carnival barker expertise to attract a following. Add in a large primary pool of candidates, the loudest voice wins.

There were many times in the past where the party (Dem or GOP) prevented a demagogue from getting the nomination (the "backroom" deals), but those days are long past.

And, IMO, a parliamentary system - where the party with the most votes gets to choose the President - or a multi-party system where the party with the most electoral votes wins, would be a complete disaster, and Trump's capture of the nomination is Example #1.
 

toadermcgee

Well-known member
Sep 26, 2007
689
4
Newburgh, IN
As an independent I wonder what faults does HRC possess that would justify voting for a certifiable psychopath. I'm hoping to hear something incriminating beyond the dumb email and Bengazi 'scandals'.

She wants to bring back Imperialism and Feudalism. I can't recall her ever speaking of individual responsibility and the freedom it brings. Everything is the collective "we" ruled by those who know what is best for us.

The "us" in her tag line is Hillary and Bill.
 

SCSL

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2005
4,144
152
Do you not know about the 2012 election "postmortem?"

It called for working on outreach to minorities, younger people. Trump's rise is going against all that.

And the "base" is the problem (as it was for the Democrats for the last 50 years - and to some extent today).

But, if you think that Trumpism is the way to win (or Tea party) national elections, that is, only support for over 40 white dudes, well...

Edit: Read pg 4 http://goproject.gop.com/rnc_growth_opportunity_book_2013.pdf

Public perception of the Party is at record lows. Young voters are increasingly rolling their eyes
at what the Party represents, and many minorities wrongly think that Republicans do not like them
or want them in the country. When someone rolls their eyes at us, they are not likely to open their
ears to us.
At the federal level, much of what Republicans are doing is not working beyond the core
constituencies that make up the Party. On the state level, however, it is a different story.

I think you may have misread my post as pro-Trump. As it stands, none of the candidates match my views. But that's not really important. What is important is that it is observably true that the previous "outreach" strategy of the GOP has been a failure. The GOP is not going to be taking market share away from the Democratic party and it's core constituencies. Ever. Unless of course the GOP changes into something else. Further, it is observably true that the core base of the GOP is fed up with the leadership, and that views of the leadership and those of the base contradict on a number of key, specific issues. Unless this gap is bridged, the GOP will have to disolve and/or split into two parties.
 

emmodg

Well-known member
Apr 17, 2006
4,273
1
Conservatism as we know it is dead; in it's place is scorched earth, burning bridges, short-sighted socioeconomic policy, and rampant suspicion of government, corporations, and fellow citizens.
 

p m

Administrator
Staff member
Apr 19, 2004
15,643
867
58
La Jolla, CA
www.3rj.org
Too many people blindly vote for the party and not the candidate.
... and there's a good reason for that.
It's been a very long time since there was a presidential candidate who could rationally explain how he or she was different from the rest, and offer reasonable path to peace and prosperity.

Now that we see the most-right-wing Democrat candidate and completely-out-of-whack, former Democrat, Republican candidate, all there is to vote for is a general leaning of whichever party.
 

emmodg

Well-known member
Apr 17, 2006
4,273
1
... and there's a good reason for that.
It's been a very long time since there was a presidential candidate who could rationally explain how he or she was different from the rest, and offer reasonable path to peace and prosperity.

Now that we see the most-right-wing Democrat candidate and completely-out-of-whack, former Democrat, Republican candidate, all there is to vote for is a general leaning of whichever party.

BAM! And there in lies the rub! You speak as if theses two are the ONLY human beings running for POTUS. They are not! I'm not a Green Party "guy" nor am I a Libertarian Party "guy". I'm a "Who, right now, can do the least harm to this country guy". I'm going to look strongly at Johnson. If we as citizens, all of us, went into this thing from the VERY beginning looking and voting for the INDIVIDUAL that we thought could do the very best - acting blind to who's "team" they were on - we wold have viable candidates. Instead we go into every election looking in the crowd for the guy in the right "team" jersey. We're the ones who put these two clowns in contention. We'll all reap what we sow.
 

discostew

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2010
7,735
1,026
Northern Illinois
I think trump just planned on being a spoiler in the beginning but then his big ego made him think that he could actually get in the white house. The scariest thing I've read about him and his tax returns is the fact that he could be very much beholden to Russian's because of huge debt to people over there.Like some heckler said to him " Your Putin's Bitch"