W '04

[cmondieyoung]

It was just an offhand comment---Antoinette was married to Louis XVI, a Bourbon if memory serves me correctly (in the 1770s). She was particulary known for her humanity and progessive ideologies, which upset the nobles in France. Rather than surpressing social movements, she encouraged them, and I do believe many historians consider her a key figure of the new "demoracies" that would spring up world wide.

I do digress; you are correct that the actuall head-choppin' Revolution didn't occur until the end of the 18th century---but the seeds of the dissent that inspired the American colonists were in place in France for years prior. I probably shouldn't have used her name, though..

 

[cmondieyoung]

By your logic LAUSD is the best school district around (democrat) and Orange County is crap (republican). It's interesting that what makes sense in NY doesn' hold true in CA...

I see. Your sister is being forced to attend private school due to a republican conspiracy...

I realize that life is simpler looking down at the rest of us from the "groves of Academe" and wishing everyone was as intelligent and wise as you.

In a previous post I deliberately made exception to California--the situation there is indeed unique to the rest of the country.

If Republican conspiracy means consistent willingness to cut back state education funding in Virginia, then I say yes, it is. (?)

Looking down at the rest of "us"? Since we're debating a financially-related issue, I'd say I'm the one looking up at the rest of you... As far as intelligent and wise, well, if you'd like to debate archeology, I'd like to think I know a thing or two.

 

[bri]

So if the well off people continue to end their kids to private schools and teachers continue to teach there, it sure seems like less and less attention will be given to public schools. And we have huge states like CA with all the stuff wrong as mentioned by GregH. Seems like this we are going down hill fast, at least by what some have said here. So WTF?

Other coutries have great public schools, not meant to bring up any tangential policital debates, but just to point out that it can be done.

Really who has a plan to start solving these problems eh? To me it seems like the candidates are just giving it all lip service, even though we have a plan to continue support in Iraq. We're dumping money in Education (supposedly), the War and a ton of other things as well as cutting taxes. I say the deficit will be as high as Reagan years.

Brian

 

[curtis]

Curtis, I hope you don't mean the parental commitment means sending kids to private schools?

Not at all. Commitment comes in many forms and at many different levels. The opposite is also not true: just because a kid goes to private does not necessarily mean his/her parents are committed. Certainly there are very devoted parents on both sides though.

What I have observed is that parents who send thier kids to private schools tend to be much more personally involved in thier kids academics in a proportional comparison to parents whose kids go to public school.

 

[Peter-man99]

Not at all. Commitment comes in many forms and at many different levels. The opposite is also not true: just because a kid goes to private does not necessarily mean his/her parents are committed. Certainly there are very devoted parents on both sides though.

What I have observed is that parents who send thier kids to private schools tend to be much more personally involved in thier kids academics in a proportional comparison to parents whose kids go to public school.

Curtis' own state is a perfect example of what he is saying. Utah is among the lowest 10% in teacher wages but in among the top 10%in test scores. Research has shown it's not the money but parent involvement that is the difference maker and parents in Utah are very involved according to the study.

Not that teachers don't deserve more, my father-in-law likes to say if you paid teachers what lawers get paid you wouldn't have the need for so many lawers.

 

[cmondieyoung]

I'm sorry---can you give me some references that it's in the top 10% or lowest wages and test scores?

Not trying to nitpick--I'm genuinely interested.

 

[curtis]

Curtis' own state is a perfect example of what he is saying. Utah is among the lowest 10% in teacher wages but in among the top 10%in test scores.

Not really. Utah is pretty bad as far as test scores. Not the lowest, but pretty bad. 24th or 25th is I recall correctly. I guess this is not too shabby since they rank 52nd in per student spending (inclding Puerto Rice & DC)They also use social promotion to advance grades and not academic achivement. Bush's education plan has met fierce resistance here because the schools know the students are not up to par.

Maybe this is why my kids go to private school

 

[GregH]

With all that you say here Greg, this highlights the most important aspect of education: parental involvement. I don't pay the extra money above what I pay in taxes for private education because I have a pile of expendable income. I do it because my kids go to a school that is enrolled with parents of kids who have the same concerns about thier childrens education as I do.

While this issue is somwhat seperated from political debate, it is still fact. Those parents that are willing to make the financial sacrifice typically are doing so because they truly care. This does not mean that those who are publicly educated have no shot in life, but I truly believe that the parental commitment is essential.

Agreed

Just got back from "Parent's Night" reviewing my homework responsibilities, class helping needs and fundraiser needs.

 

[cmondieyoung]

I'm glad you had time in your schedule to do so.

Unfortunately some people have to work double shifts or even double jobs. Are they to be construed as "uncaring parents"?

"Parental involvement" is synonymous with "time spent". Many people don't have this time because of the aforementioned financial reality.

That's why their kids run around with gangs, skip school, etc etc.

But that's another issue, isn't it? Restructuring the very fabric of the dominant culture in society...

I doubt the readers of this thread would be willing to give up their positions "on top" in order to help a Chicano family "on the bottom".


This is the same rationale as "Ah, welfare is bullshit! Buncha fuckin' freeloaders needa get a job!"

 

[GregH]

In a previous post I deliberately made exception to California--the situation there is indeed unique to the rest of the country.

Really? Please enlightenment me as to why this is so.

If Republican conspiracy means consistent willingness to cut back state education funding in Virginia, then I say yes, it is. (?)

I see. So when the democrats propose harsh cuts in indigent medical services here in California in reaction to budget shortfalls that's OK? (at the same time giving record increases to state employees and funding other sweetheart deals for democratic supporters)

I'll tell you you what else I see. You're trying to explain away your families' hypocritical decision of accepting the benefits of private education by partisan finger-pointing (i.e. the republicans made me do it).

Looking down at the rest of "us"? Since we're debating a financially-related issue, I'd say I'm the one looking up at the rest of you... As far as intelligent and wise, well, if you'd like to debate archeology, I'd like to think I know a thing or two.

LOL

Your statement that "Americans continue their path to general ignorance, unfortunately" has got to be one of the most incredibly arrogant yet ignorant statements I have read on Dweb.

Maybe you could also enlighten me on your comment, "Marx thought maybe people could skip an eon of social evolution; obviously he was wrong". Do you know anything about Marxist economic philosophy? I could use the humor...

 

[GregH]

I'm glad you had time in your schedule to do so.

Unfortunately some people have to work double shifts or even double jobs. Are they to be construed as "uncaring parents"?

Nope. I work two jobs myself.

"Parental involvement" is synonymous with "time spent". Many people don't have this time because of the aforementioned financial reality.

That's quite true.

That's why their kids run around with gangs, skip school, etc etc.

Really? With that leap in logic then the children of anyone who is unemployed or on welfare must be doing very well in school since they have the time to spend with them.

But that's another issue, isn't it? Restructuring the very fabric of the dominant culture in society...

Yes, but now since you've given us the arrogant, simplistic solution we can easily solve the problem of social inequity in our society. That's truly brilliant...

I doubt the readers of this thread would be willing to give up their positions "on top" in order to help a Chicano family "on the bottom".

Unfortunately, I'm not on top of anything but a mountain of debt and taxes (you know, the money that pays for your subsidized student housing and allows arrogant archeology Phd-wannabe's to get a loan to go sit in a cave and figure out if Native Americans crossed the Bering Sea by ice bridge, boat or UFO).

However, I'm sure you have already given up your studies to go and help another poor American "on the bottom" haven't you? Yes, I'm sure you have because you're not being hypocritical are you? I know quite a few honest, hard-working yet needy Latino families that could use your Land Rover in order to get to work.

This is the same rationale as "Ah, welfare is bullshit! Buncha fuckin' freeloaders needa get a job!"

Do you actually believe that? The mindless assumptions you are making are truly incredible! The simplistic, thoughtless knee-jerk solutions to complex social issues that you espouse amaze me.

 

[curtis]

I think Greg wrapped that up quite well, but since you are on a guilt bearing tangent: what did you do today? You speak like you actually made a contribution towards societal/economic development. If so, what was this contribuion? I am not asking this to belittle you, but because I am genuinely interested. (I stole this line from you)

The interesting thing is that now you want to shift the burden of proof to someone other than yourself. Greg went to work today at two jobs paying taxes at both. I went to work today and paid a large amount of taxes at one job (which also happens to give back). Quid pro quo: I get and I give. Thus far it seems that you think that just because you have the potential to give (maybe one day?), you actually have grounds to come out and criticize those that do.

In summary, I want to hear exactly how you are actually helping out (maybe the poor Chicano family?) and on what grounds you base your allegations on. Thus far it seems that you are tying up my tax dollars by educating yourself on quite a few things that can not be equated into any real-world benefit right now. At this point I better shuddup or I will end up sending you a bill.

 

[bri]

I think Greg wrapped that up quite well, but since you are on a guilt bearing tangent: what did you do today? You speak like you actually made a contribution towards societal/economic development. If so, what was this contribuion? I am not asking this to belittle you, but because I am genuinely interested. (I stole this line from you)

Give me a break guys, is it that all you have to say? How about your opinions on what our nation can do to improve rather than just shooting down one poster's ideas. Really, not to steal the line again, but I'd like to hear what you think is good about your presidential candidate's plan and why you are choosing him rather than all of this holier than thou bickering.

 

[Steve]

I do digress; you are correct that the actuall head-choppin' Revolution didn't occur until the end of the 18th century---but the seeds of the dissent that inspired the American colonists were in place in France for years prior. I probably shouldn't have used her name, though..

Not to beat a dead horse but I must.

Just like you have accurately pointed out, the seeds of dissent began well before the French Revolution, likewise, the discontent in our own country began long before 1776. As a matter of fact, the earliest documented reference to the discontent in the colonies was in the form of a letter written March 30th, 1652. It was written by the Commander and Commisioners of the Eastern Shore of Virginia, representing Accomack and Northampton Counties and presented to the council at Jamestown. It specifically mentions a problem that began in 1647 that culminates in their request for succession from Virginia! The grievence mentioned primarily.... taxation without representation.

Just a gee whiz.

 

[curtis]

Give me a break guys, is it that all you have to say? How about your opinions on what our nation can do to improve rather than just shooting down one poster's ideas. Really, not to steal the line again, but I'd like to hear what you think is good about your presidential candidate's plan and why you are choosing him rather than all of this holier than thou bickering.

Brian, I have yet to post an opinion about any candidate. My opinion really only counts when I vote anyways. That being said we have one candidate with a platform and ideas for the future and another whose platform is to try to tear down the incumbent. What a brilliant strategy Kerry has. Rather than focusing on what he plans to do, just play a shell game with the people by trash-talking Bush. It seems to be working well too as each and every day that passes the critical "undecided" keep improving Bush's numbers.

LOL - come to think of it, why don't you send your last post to Kerry. Maybe he can learn a lesson from it

 

[Steve]

Curtis, my observations about both platforms are very much in tune with what you said. Every election it seems comes down to the lesser of two evils. Neither canidate is perfect but at least Bush sticks to his guns and has a clear plan.

 

[cmondieyoung]

I'll tell you you what else I see. You're trying to explain away your families' hypocritical decision of accepting the benefits of private education by partisan finger-pointing (i.e. the republicans made me do it).

Where is the hypocrisy? The Republicans DID make me do it. If my family still lived in New York, my sister would attend public school in Westchester--why? Because the high taxes in that area allow for a good school system.

We keep coming back to this. Public schools in poor, conversative areas (the south, the west, and the southwest) will never compete with those in New England or the mid-atlantic. Why? Well that's obvious. It's a case of "I hate the government, I don't make much money, I don't need any goddamn taxes."

Your statement that "Americans continue their path to general ignorance, unfortunately" has got to be one of the most incredibly arrogant yet ignorant statements I have read on Dweb.

Whatever. To even suggest to the contrary that the American elementary to high school education system is not lacking is exactly the ignorance I am talking about. After all, we're the best country in the world, right?

Maybe you could also enlighten me on your comment, "Marx thought maybe people could skip an eon of social evolution; obviously he was wrong". Do you know anything about Marxist economic philosophy? I could use the humor...

Well obviously you don't. Pick up a copy of the Communist Manifesto. The answer lies plainly inside.

 

[GregH]

Give me a break guys, is it that all you have to say? How about your opinions on what our nation can do to improve rather than just shooting down one poster's ideas. Really, not to steal the line again, but I'd like to hear what you think is good about your presidential candidate's plan and why you are choosing him rather than all of this holier than thou bickering.

Shooting down one poster's ideas? He's not giving us any ideas. He's spouting partisan rhetoric and finger-pointing. "Ethical Primate?" More like "Mindless Liberal Monkey" I'd say.

The reasons I will vote for Bush are listed by others above. I believe that he is a better leader than Kerry and is less likely to kill the middle class with taxes or regulate the hell out of small business. I strongly believe that small business is the backbone of America and needs protection. It's the entrepreneurial spirit that has made our country what it is. If you want to tax large corporations, go ahead. I have voted in the past for both Democrat and Republican candidates depending on the individual I'm voting for.

Just remember, if you are counting on tax revenue to pay for tons of social programs and nice wages and benefits for your union constituents, what happens when that taxable income falls off (like here in California and other states in the last two years). Those wealthy corps and individuals paying all those taxes now have a less income. They'll ride out the leaner times with all their assets. All of the sudden budget shortfalls occur and now painful cuts have to be made.

 

[cmondieyoung]

Unfortunately, I'm not on top of anything but a mountain of debt and taxes (you know, the money that pays for your subsidized student housing and allows arrogant archeology Phd-wannabe's to get a loan to go sit in a cave and figure out if Native Americans crossed the Bering Sea by ice bridge, boat or UFO).

However, I'm sure you have already given up your studies to go and help another poor American "on the bottom" haven't you? Yes, I'm sure you have because you're not being hypocritical are you? I know quite a few honest, hard-working yet needy Latino families that could use your Land Rover in order to get to work.

Well, by contributing to our understanding of the history of the world we live in, I certainly "contribute more to society" than someone who sits under a mountain of debt and taxes, don't I? Sounds like all you do is shell out cash to a greedy government. Poor you.

The work we've done with Tlingit and Haida communities in SE Alaska to reaffirm land claims and historic fishing precedents is noble in my mind.

And you missed my point--I was only suggesting that the situation is driven by much more than a simple tax equation. I was not proposing a superficial social theory that would "solve all the problems", only that the stratification of our social system is a racial mountain that discourages most _wealthy_ Americans from feeling any social obligation to those below themselves.

They'd rather give to charity and adopt a highway than pay a higher income tax.

I was hoping we could avoid bringing in our material indulgences.

 

[bri]

Shooting down one poster's ideas? He's not giving us any ideas. He's spouting partisan rhetoric and finger-pointing. "Ethical Primate?" More like "Mindless Liberal Monkey" I'd say.

You can argue a point with him if you wish, but if you think he is mindless, calling him names and making personal attacks is merely stooping below his level. Everyone has an opinion and if you want to convince someone of your argument you have to get off your high horse sometimes.

The reasons I will vote for Bush are listed by others above. I believe that he is a better leader than Kerry and is less likely to kill the middle class with taxes or regulate the hell out of small business. I strongly believe that small business is the backbone of America and needs protection. It's the entrepreneurial spirit that has made our country what it is. If you want to tax large corporations, go ahead. I have voted in the past for both Democrat and Republican candidates depending on the individual I'm voting for.

As far as I know the middle class receives less of a tax break now than other brackets. Just look at the tax savings listed from calculators earlier in the post. As your income increases so does your savings.

I also think that he is only a mediocre leader. Cheney is running the show behind the scenes. George has a bunch of smart people helping him make each and every move, but I would not give him all of the credit.

I think both candidates have some story of relief for the middle class and do not think that Kerry is going to kill the middle class, as you put it. Has Bush really helped the middle class or has he helped upper class more? As far as corporations go I believe both candidates have some similarities in their pitch and contrary to what you say Kerry *says* that he would like to simplify aspects of small business.

Please keep in mind I am not pro either candidate, just trying to point out what they are saying. Here are links to some overviews on what the candidates have to say about small business. I have reviewed only at a cursory level at this point. Each have much more information on this discussion available on their sites.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/economy/small_biz.html
http://www.georgewbush.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=3243