Weld On D-Rings???

[Kyle]

Andrew , you are stating the obvious. However , most places you look in the comercial marlet you see that the reco points are bolted on with back plates.. Its not about you trusting it. Its if you trust it completely not to rocket rhough someones skull in a vehicle behind you when you try and strap them... Yeah , think on that for a moment..

 

[Andrew Homan]

Kyle, I'm asking this as a liget question so don't take it wrong but how does a backing plate stop the heads of the bolts or outside brachet from going through someone when the bolts break. You know more about manufacturing than most on this board. I understand weld can have defects but so can bolts.

When I built my bumper at the shop that has been called the "Monster Garage" by some of you they convinced me welding was better for the d-rings and had one of their "pros" do it. I have to say they are impressive welds and they lifted the ENTIRE rover of the ground witha crane by thoses welds. This was done to prove their point and because I was whinning about making sure it was really strong.

I enjoy your no BS approach so let me know what you think I'm still learning.

 

[bri]

One idea might be how they fail. It is unlikely that all bolts would fail, but if a weld fails, likely it goes pretty fast. You might get a bit of warning. I have no idea on a brute for comparison of weld vs grade 8 bolt, but a grade 8 bolt seems pretty damned strong.

 

[Andrew Homan]

I'm sure there is a study out there somewhere. but I would think if one bolt went the others would be over taxed and eventually break?

 

[Kyle]

Andrew , I have welded many a reco point and have used them harshly. I never had a failure with mine, but I would never hook to anyone with them with a kinetic rope. The issue is not with the weld or is quality but rather what its welded to. The area imediately around the weld is much weaker then the weld itself , also , "Shit Happens". I think that is the most appropriate phrase of our time. Yeah , shit happens all the time that we didnt expect. A weld can be layed down and look picture perfect and not hold a damn thing. Its tough to tell this unless its Xrayed. I know that sounds extreme but you are dealing with someones life when you hook a kinetic to one thats pointed right at another persons face and driving off.

The difference in the two is area. You want to cover ALOT of area with a weld on a reco point. I usually run multiple stepped beads in both directions to give me some piece of mind. That way I have thickened the imediate area around the point and I have distributed that pressure over a larger area.

The difference between bolts and welds is a bolt can be rated , a weld cant unless its Xrayed and tested. So for the layperson a bolt is a better route. Lets look at two instances of something I feel pretty decent about.
Here is RTEs
http://www.rovertym.com/ourprod/recovery.jpg
You will notice that its stepped out and is not just a reco welded to the plate of the bumper , This gives more weld contact area and I would put alot of faith in it.
Now this one is mine http://www.roversolutions.com/thebumper/billb3.JPG and I would put more faith in it simply because I know what the bolts are capable of handleing and there are four 1/2" bolts there. Combine them and you have 2" of material holding the reco point onto a 3/8 plate with the nuts welded to the back side...
So I ask , if you had to be absolutely positive and you life depending on using one or the other. Which one would logic force you to use ? Again , absolutely positive....

 

[DeanBrown3D]

...they lifted the ENTIRE rover of the ground witha crane by thoses welds. This was done to prove their point and because I was whinning about making sure it was really strong.

So you proved they lift 5000 lb. What about when you snatch someone out of a mud hole and put 5x that inpulse force though the thing? Or someone winches you with a block and puts on 15K?

 

[Porter]

Especially on a bumper, I would be suspect to any type of impact welded reco points may have. For a bolted unit, an easy replacement of the bolts and a quick inspection would be all that's necessary. If deemed necessary, the entire point could be replaced. With a welded reco point, it would be harder to tell if any damage was done, and if there was some substantial impact, how would you evaluate its integrity for possible replacement?

I'm just a fan of keeping things simple. Bolt on if you like it, bolt off if you don't. But that's just me.

 

[CaptainSpalding]

Welding is fine. . .

The material that Land Rover frames are made of isn't all that thick. I wouldn't rely on the strength of something welded on in such a fashion.

If the thickness of the frame material is worrisome, then beef it up. Weld a nice piece of plate to the frame, say 2x4x1/4 inches, then the ring to the plate. You have plenty of perimeter around the plate, and a good bead all the way around will spread the forces adequately. With the 1/4 inch thickness, you'll get plenty of penetration when you weld the ring to the plate.

 

[antichrist]

Trusting your life with it and putting someone elses life on the line with it are two different things now arent they ?
snip

Very true, and many people have trusted their lives to my welds, and I had no concerns, nor did they. Now as far as trusting my life to a backyard weldor's weld.....
However, my comment about welding to the frame stands. It's too thin.

 

[antichrist]

If the thickness of the frame material is worrisome, then beef it up. Weld a nice piece of plate to the frame, say 2x4x1/4 inches, then the ring to the plate. You have plenty of perimeter around the plate, and a good bead all the way around will spread the forces adequately. With the 1/4 inch thickness, you'll get plenty of penetration when you weld the ring to the plate.

I still wouldn't do it. The directional forces on the frame via such a weld are entirely different that they are via a jate ring. Also, a weld, if faulty, can actually tear.
With a jate ring, you're trying to pull it through the axis of the frame. Welded to the frame you aren't, you're in essence trying to peel it off.
Welding to a heavy guage bumper is different, but I'd still choose bolts over welds, if for no other reason that there is more versatility. As Kyle said also( I think), bolting through a backing plate gives alot more strength.

General comments.
On the strength of bolts vs welds, grade 8 have, I believe, about 160,000 psi tensile strength if properly torqued. Multiply that by 5/8 or whatever your bolt size is, times the number of bolts and you'll have an idea of the force needed to overcome them.

8018, the most common low hydrogen rod, has a tensiile strenth of 80,000 psi. You can also get 11018 (110,000 psi), and by special order, some higher, but the price goes up. For the welding rod, that rating is for new rod, properly stored (just out of a sealed can, or rod overn as low hydrogen rod is hydroscopic) on bare properly prepared clean dry metal. Welded by a good weldor. If any of the above conditions aren't met, the strength goes down quickly.


As for the garage picking up the rover by the rings to "prove" their strength, that's disengious and they should know better. If they don't know better, then I'd like to know their name so I can be sure I never have any work done there.

 

[Andrew Homan]

First of all I wouldn't call any place with 2+ acres under roof and two 1.0 mil dollar laser cutters, four press brakes and more shit than I care to list a garage. they are a world wide manufacturing facility making shit for people in europe US and south America. don't worry they don't make Rover stuff for a living or want to I just trust them when they tell me what will hold. They manufacture Items out of everything from Titanium to standard steel. But I'm sure the lot of us who sit here an write about this know more. I know I called them a monsters garage. It was aquote I had from a previous post some else made when my sliders were being "evaluated"

 

[DeanBrown3D]

They may be the best engineers in the world, but that test don't mean a damn thing. A tie-down point will probably lift a rover.

 

[Kyle]

Andrew I am not busting chops of anyone. I am just saying that when I give out advise here I give out advise that I am absolutely certain is good. You arent wrong , your guys arent wrong and Tom here isnt wrong . However the welds are something that cant be graded or judged without some trouble and effort so you will never really be absolutely sure of them. Tom gives you ratings on welds that are done right. And its just that , the weld not the matreial that its attached to... If I were you I would just be leary when snatching on anyone with them...

 

[Andrew Homan]

Kyle thanks, let me ask you this when I do the rear bumper should I go with additional points or use the hitch receiver rings you see. and what design bumper do you like. I know you make front ones do you make rear ones as well? If you want I can start another post or e-mail so I don't hi-jack this one.

Dean many of their customers do think they are the best engineers around. I'm just lucky to be close friends with the owner an GM. I know that test doesn't mean much but when youv'e had your rover about three months and see it vertical all four wheels of the ground hanging by an industrial crane you look at it and think cool. My mechanical background is with German cars Porsche BMW ect so this is all new to me. I tend to go to extremes when I get into things so I'm trying to learn and go off-raoding as much as possible.

I called and asked and they concurre that the pull strength with good bolts is better but can be lacking in shear strength depending on # and design of the item. They also concurred that welds can be very strong but more difficult to cetifiy. we did not x-ray these. sometyhing about it being a bumper that they built cheap for me anyway.

 

[bri]

Crikey... if I had my rover for 3 months, I would not have let anyone near it with a crane, you trusting soul.

 

[Andrew Homan]

trusting? thats the nicest thing I've been called today

 

[DeanBrown3D]

Andrew - those jate rings only have one bolt taking all the strain. I bet you its just a grade-8 bolt too. So with 4x that in Kyles design, I think you can be pretty sure its strong enough.

In DWeb community spirit though, I really do suggest something in the line of a new bumper. You're gonna end up buying one one day anyway, and they're not that expensive for what you get. I was like you trying to get away with something cheaper, but once I got the bumper - it was the best thing I ever did for the truck.

Dean

(ps then you can get a winch too! )

 

[Andrew Homan]

Dean, I assume you mean my front bumper. You may have misunderstood my statement. They made me the bumper cheap. Its not a cheap bumper however. I'm sure KVT make great ones but this was something these guys wanted to do for me as a friend. I mean cheap because it didn't cost me much (labor and most parts were free.) I beat the crap out of it so far and its taken hard hits from rocks and trees with no problems. I had some pic of it posted on a thread about home made sliders The response I got on e-mail was good. They did little things like use 3/8 armor plate steel for the brackets This steel will stop a 50 bmg round yes I have tested it. I wouldnt trade it for anything out there. I'm sure the finish isn't as good as others. it was a first one prototype. But structurally its awsome.

 

[DeanBrown3D]

Ok my bad. Was in regard to welding onto the frame posts. Sounds like a great bumper! Post some pics of it here will you? I'd like to see it.

 

[Andrew Homan]

No problem, I give it a try tonight or just email them to you. I seem to have trouble getting pics posted I'm sure its on my end still working out the bugs.