2020 Defender

SCSL

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2005
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152
Land Rover should have done better with the Discovery 5.
Understatement of the thread. The LR Explorer shredded whatever presence of differentiation the brand possessed and disowned the uniqueness that held the brand together. Range Rovers are luxurious, amazing even, but they’re merely a commodity in a crowded field. The question must always be: what makes the brand unique? What differentiates it from our competition? It’s not “What do we do better?” It’s “What do we do that no one else does?”
 

mgreenspan

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2005
4,723
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Briggs's Back Yard
Understatement of the thread. The LR Explorer shredded whatever presence of differentiation the brand possessed and disowned the uniqueness that held the brand together. Range Rovers are luxurious, amazing even, but they’re merely a commodity in a crowded field. The question must always be: what makes the brand unique? What differentiates it from our competition? It’s not “What do we do better?” It’s “What do we do that no one else does?”
Circle jerk over cannibalizing their own sales?


Wait, I know. They insist upon themselves. Maybe Maserati does that too, but definitely Land Rover.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
I guess we’ll agree to disagree and I’ll respectively submit that your conclusions are 180 degree opposite from the direction LR should have taken. LR as a purely luxury Range Rover brand, absent the grounding of a true off road vehicle(s) means nothing differentiates them from Escalade or Land Cruiser and they lose. LR as a brand differentiated, the Range Rover that is a civilized, luxury version of a true and unique off road beast, is a critical differentiating factor that JLR takes to the bank. Or not, as we see today with the Pretender. I’m assuming you’re an engineer or a coder or somesuch because what you’re failing to appreciate is that all sales is about differentiation. Irrespective of your patience, you are looking at this problem with an IQ that far exceeds your EQ.

Land Rover mistook sales for success, as well. It's a common malady as simply avoided as selling low and buying high; and every bit as difficult to resist.

Differentiate all you want, but it's value tomorrow that matters; not how many cars leave the lot. That single misinterpretation is how Land Rover now accidentally has some people believing that enough other people actually cared about the Defender to make a business case for the damned thing in any form other than we see today.

Hell, they don't even own the IP in a meaningful way. Jeep and Toyota do; at least in popular perception.

It doesn't actually matter who's right, because in either estimation Land Rover has been making the same mistake over and over again. The contention regards the nature of the mistake, which isn't overly relevant because the cure is the same either way: They need to organize themselves properly.

The D5 was the wrong car. The Velar was the wrong car. The Defender was the right car. Forget the name. Call it Fred. Fred is the car Land Rover needed to build. Going from the bottom up leaves them with a less sensible line than they have now. Approaching utility from the "top down" is a safe move.

They wasted any chance they had to create something new to fill the "rugged" gap when they finished off that Brady Bunch of Range Rovers. This could have had any name. For my own interests I don't care what it's called. It seems useful enough, looks nice... It's worth a drive. I certainly think it's more interesting than their other offerings at the moment.

I'm glad they built the thing, anyway. If nothing else it's unique as hell, and it's a brilliant piece of design.

Cheers,

Kennith
 
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kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Land Rover should have done better with the Discovery 5. It should have pushed into the outdoor enthusiast market. I mean, shit, the name of the vehicle is DISCOVERY!!! It practically begs to be marketed to people wanting to DISCOVER something. That would have put the brand in a better position to roll out a nice rugged Defender with 32" tires and a soft top.

But Kennith is still wrong I believe. Land Rover DID make up their mind a long time ago about who they are. Their brand, their image has nothing to do with their past, and that includes every previous owner of Defenders and Discoveries.

The Discovery was a misstep. It needed to balance the scale, and that's not what it does at all. With the Velar in the mix it's laughable.

Land Rover knew who they wanted to be, and they were; for a while. In the end, they got high on their own supply.

This Defender looks darn practical, though. The more I look at the interior and imagine living with it, the more I like it. It's got to be fun to drive, though, and I'm somewhat concerned about the decision to stick with that tiny rear door.

The biggest worry I have beyond that are those afterthought air vents. That thing had better have a damned good air conditioner and a powerful fan.

Cheers,

Kennith
 
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Blueboy

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
3,217
469
Back in the USA; Rockwood, PA
Neither would ever be my daily driver, or something I'd take on a 8h drive. Driving a 25 year old Defender with no A/C would be the same thing, IMO.
Pussy 😁 We drove our 1967 IIa 109 up tp PEI from W.PA. which was much longer than 8h. All in the mindset. Same with the RRC. We just returned from a jaunt (1,350 miles) to Maine with no A/C.
 
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SGaynor

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Dec 6, 2006
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Bristol, TN
It seems useful enough, looks nice... It's worth a drive. I certainly think it's more interesting than their other offerings at the moment.
And that right there is why I'm interested in it. I think it looks better than any other Rover (except the big Range Rover, but I really wouldn't want to take that off road), and definitely better than anything Jeep, Toyota, GM, Ford offer, and much more capable to boot.

I'm not saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it's definitely not shit either. (ETA: At first look; we'll have to see how reliable it is when it actually comes out and has been around for a couple of years)
 

SGaynor

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Dec 6, 2006
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Bristol, TN
Pussy 😁 We drove our 1967 IIa 109 up tp PEI from W.PA. which was much longer than 8h. All in the mindset. Same with the RRC. We just returned from a jaunt (1,350 miles) to Maine with no A/C.
I owned a Jeep in the early 2000s with a soft top and no AC. For two years I was on the gulf coast of TX, then 3 in MI. I either melted or froze my ass off.

Then I discovered the Discovery. Wait....You mean I can have a vehicle that is just as off road capable as a Jeep, but be absolutely comfortable? Really?

Here - take my money.

;)
 

Blueboy

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Apr 20, 2004
3,217
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Back in the USA; Rockwood, PA
I owned a Jeep in the early 2000s with a soft top and no AC. For two years I was on the gulf coast of TX, then 3 in MI. I either melted or froze my ass off.

Then I discovered the Discovery. Wait....You mean I can have a vehicle that is just as off road capable as a Jeep, but be absolutely comfortable? Really?

Here - take my money.

;)
Yes totally agree.

Yet, as most of my life has been with vehicles w/o A/C enjoy driving with the windows down and fresh air. Especially in the Rovers. And really enjoy driving with the top down in the Saab.

However realize most folks never drive w/o A/C blowing full force.

And hopefully you realized my comment was in jest.
 

DiscoHasBeen

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Aug 7, 2016
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Indy
I owned a Jeep in the early 2000s with a soft top and no AC. For two years I was on the gulf coast of TX, then 3 in MI. I either melted or froze my ass off.

Then I discovered the Discovery. Wait....You mean I can have a vehicle that is just as off road capable as a Jeep, but be absolutely comfortable? Really?

Here - take my money.

;)

A soft top and no AC doesn't really make for a fair comparison, keeping in mind that they sell jeeps with hard tops and AC.

I owned both also. I really like both but for completely different reasons. The difference was the whole time I owned the Wrangler all I did was PM to it. The Discovery was a constant headache.
 

Tugela

Well-known member
May 21, 2007
4,764
564
Seattle
I visit friends and family in South Africa every couple of years. I always spend some time driving a friend's Series Ones (he has 3 of them, the oldest being a 1949). First off, I can't even fit into the driver's seat without removing the door and sticking it in back. Driving that vehicle takes a considerable amount of strength, skill, and nerve. No power anything. I enjoy driving a S1 for the novelty factor, but after about 30 minutes I am physically worn out between wrestling with the controls and contorting myself to fit in the cockpit.

The S1 is the ultimate Land Rover purist's model. Everything after that was a departure and dilution of the original. The new Defender is unrecognizable from the 86" S1, and thank goodness for that. I find the new vehicle appealing and with the options that interest me the price tag is still <$60K. I'm keen to experience it from the driver's seat. I can't say definitively that I would buy one, but as a Rover enthusiast since the age of 6 whose first trip was across the Kalahari in a Series IIa, I don't think the company botched it.

I'm also patiently waiting to see what Ineos does with the Grenadier, and I'm also keeping an eye on the used car market in South Africa for a 300TDI Defender 110 to bring back to the States.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
However realize most folks never drive w/o A/C blowing full force.

That's all me and a bag of chips nowadays.

I want my sunglasses to fog up when I get out of the vehicle. I've had enough of the whole rugged, sweaty shirt thing if another option is available. That's only fun for me if it comes with a story someone else will remember better than I do, and I'm paying for enough of that shit as it is. It's 67 degrees in this building right now and it will be all day long.

Fuck it. My pussy hurts. :ROFLMAO:

Cheers,

Kennith
 
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SGaynor

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Dec 6, 2006
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Yes totally agree.

Yet, as most of my life has been with vehicles w/o A/C enjoy driving with the windows down and fresh air. Especially in the Rovers. And really enjoy driving with the top down in the Saab.

However realize most folks never drive w/o A/C blowing full force.

And hopefully you realized my comment was in jest.
I did. So was mine.

If I was still living in MI where it rarely gets above 90, yeah, I don't REALLY need AC. But here in the south (and I'm not that far south) where it's supposed to hit 95 (in fucking October!)...I want my AC.
 

SGaynor

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Dec 6, 2006
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Bristol, TN
A soft top and no AC doesn't really make for a fair comparison, keeping in mind that they sell jeeps with hard tops and AC.
See, that's why I don't get the make a Defender with a soft-top complaint.

Soft-tops are a pain in the ass. They leak (rain and cold air (in the winter)). They need to be replaced every 4-5 years (more often the closer to the equator you are). They are loud. And the new Jeeps have the full doors which make it look completely stupid with the top down (mine at least had the half doors).

So, yeah, you can solve that by getting a hard top. But then what's the point? Those aren't simple to just take off. So get a full-bodied SUV. The Defender comes with the option of getting that panoramic roof - works for me.
 

ERover82

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Nov 26, 2011
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Darien Gap
My TJ had half-doors with the soft top. Was very easy to lift off door tops and zip out rear panels. JK & JL refined the top process further. With a Defender, it's easy to roll up the canvas sides, and unbolt the half door tops. The hard tops are only a dozen bolts and a two man lift. It's something you do twice a year, not daily. Why do it? If the weather is nice, it's a ton of fun.

7150ceb69847cbde6413c256ba8fce01.png


New Defender is obviously more livable, and at least they offer the roll back top, but they could have done more. Maybe they will.
 
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kennith

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Apr 22, 2004
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North Carolina
I visit friends and family in South Africa every couple of years. I always spend some time driving a friend's Series Ones (he has 3 of them, the oldest being a 1949). First off, I can't even fit into the driver's seat without removing the door and sticking it in back. Driving that vehicle takes a considerable amount of strength, skill, and nerve. No power anything. I enjoy driving a S1 for the novelty factor, but after about 30 minutes I am physically worn out between wrestling with the controls and contorting myself to fit in the cockpit.

The S1 is the ultimate Land Rover purist's model. Everything after that was a departure and dilution of the original. The new Defender is unrecognizable from the 86" S1, and thank goodness for that. I find the new vehicle appealing and with the options that interest me the price tag is still <$60K. I'm keen to experience it from the driver's seat. I can't say definitively that I would buy one, but as a Rover enthusiast since the age of 6 whose first trip was across the Kalahari in a Series IIa, I don't think the company botched it.

I'm also patiently waiting to see what Ineos does with the Grenadier, and I'm also keeping an eye on the used car market in South Africa for a 300TDI Defender 110 to bring back to the States.

That's the thing about comfort in the middle of nowhere. It's important. Sure, we've all done the manly stuff, and those that came before us were made of tougher material, but how much more would they have accomplished if they'd been better rested; if their muscles were a little less sore, and if their backs didn't have those little kinks? How much more hydrated would they have been, and how much more clearly would they have been thinking?

It makes a difference. There's what you have to do, and then there's the best way to do it. There are pieces of military equipment that I promise you are increased in effectiveness dramatically, simply because someone saw fit to air condition the damned things, as well as add a bit of extra padding and insulation.

My word I've driven some shit cars, but it's not as if I had a nice menu from which to choose. It's either there when I show up, or I've just got to find something. Every time I see one of those Top Gear adventures I laugh my ass off; because that's usually what happens: Either I end up having to find dog shit, or someone just leaves it there for me. Either way it's dog shit and I'm stuck with it.

What I find most interesting is the fact that "Defender" is important at all. It's really just the "Series IV Land Rover".

That's probably what it would have been called if the Range Rover never happened. Each model similar, and yet a striking departure from the past.

Now, this could really go either way, but I believe the Range Rover was both the best and worst idea they ever had. The car was perfect; an instant icon, and a design triumph to this day. An original two door in the right color with tinted glass and modern bumpers could be sold new today 50:50; meaning from fifty feet or fifty miles per hour.

The name, though... That's haunted them for decades. Land Rover was a car. Then, Range Rover was a car. Cue almost fifty years of confusion. Sooner or later that bandage is going to have to come off, and there's never going to be a "right" time for it. The longer they wait to solve the problem, the worse it's going to get.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Bronco removable doors, roof, and tires with real sidewall..

Now, if that thing is what it looks like it might actually be, who's going to tell me Land Rover couldn't have just partnered with Ford and used the same platform?

That option will be available as long as the Bronco. Defender would be a nice "off-road" trim package. 😈

Cheers,

Kennith
 

SCSL

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2005
4,144
152
The name, though... That's haunted them for decades. Land Rover was a car. Then, Range Rover was a car. Cue almost fifty years of confusion. Sooner or later that bandage is going to have to come off, and there's never going to be a "right" time for it. The longer they wait to solve the problem, the worse it's going to get.
Passing someone in a parking lot a few years back, I was asked: "Is that one of those Toyota Land Rovers?"