100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

[jymmiejamz]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Just because someone is a master Land Rover tech it does not make them a good technician, that just means that they took all of the land rover classes, ASE, and have worked at a dealership for 2(?) years. That is a separate rant though...

Yes, there is room for the liners to move, I have pulled the heads off of a few motors and hod the liner sticking up higher than the deck surface.

 

[Blue]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

OK, good to know, thank you.

Just got off the phone with one of the 2 technicians at this independent Rover shop. I have very high confidence in their abilities - years with Land Rover and now operate their own shop. He scoped it and said it is coming from the middle of the left bank, either cylinder 3 or 5. We discussed the slipped liner issue and he said that it is well known that they slip but it can't be causing this rythmic tapping sound. They have measured the cylinder specs in tapping engines (cold) and everything is within spec and then they had one placed in a hot bath and remeasured and discovered that a cylinder was out of round when hot.

 

[p m]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Not something you'd like to hear now... or at any other time.

Can it be fixed with just a piston replacement?

 

[Blue]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

According to them, the only fix is a new cylinder, i.e. new short block.

It runs fine, it's just annoying. Trust me, you'll hear it next month in Utah.

 

[ptschram]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

In the old days, we'd knurl pistons to make them fit the bore. Nobody even wants to think about, it much less do the job.

If that's really the problem.

 

[jymmiejamz]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

I wasn't doubting your technicians ability, but it seems like everyone and their brother is a Land Rover master tech.

I've measured cylinder liners on motors with no issues that are out of spec. It doesn't really matter though, if its an 03/04 with a knock, it probably needs a short block. I would personally just drive it until it stops. We have a bunch of customers with knocking motors that have been driving them like that for years with no issues. It would drive me crazy though.

 

[lforgue8]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

ive been with rovers for only 11 yrs and cut my teeth on later d1's and all of the d2's..........just to put that out there........

the engine i just built up was using a known knocking motor and pinned and then all bearings and piston rings were replaced.

it has been close to 3k miles and no more noises

after seeing the youtube video of the bbq rover v8 all my doubt of liners lipping went away and IT IS NOT A MYTH.........how could a block be warm enough to the touch and a liner stil be able to move with just a little wiggle........does anybody remember what d2 thermostats open at and what the running temp is?

the failing engine we replaced sound likje a diesel locomotive and was extremly embarrissing to say the least

to Blue.....if you are inclined i would strip the block and pin it and rebuild how you see fit and i think it should be fine...as PT has said in the past these engine do go for a long time and if these tiny pins can hepl the engines along then i say do it

sorry to be long winded but after i saw that video my eyes were opened to the possibility of most all of the short block ive changed because of supposed piston slap was in fact moving liners

 

[ptschram]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

There is a gentleman in Louisville who is conducting an experiment on a block where he has removed the liners using his barbecue.

I don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet, but I've sent him gaskets and hardware to pin the liners.

We have some other tricks up our sleeves, stay tuned. If ti works, I may have a pretty large stock of "repaired" engines as back-ups for the century for my trucks

 

[ptschram]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Bill-if you need hardware to pin your liners, let me know. I just bought a tiny little milling machine for just that job.

 

[SGaynor]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

to Blue.....if you are inclined i would strip the block and pin it and rebuild how you see fit and i think it should be fine...as PT has said in the past these engine do go for a long time and if these tiny pins can hepl the engines along then i say do it

sorry to be long winded but after i saw that video my eyes were opened to the possibility of most all of the short block ive changed because of supposed piston slap was in fact moving liners

How much is the going rate on rebuilding? Say if a mechanic were to do it, or just machinist time? How much more would that cost than just replacing with a motor (used or new if you could find one).

I ask because I've got an '03 and the body is in great shape. I just wonder about the time bomb under the hood. It seemed to me that top hatting/pinning the liners would breath new life into the motor at not much more than the cost of a new one, and give one peace of mind that it wouldn't fail in 4-5 years (priceless).

 

[SGaynor]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

There is a gentleman in Louisville who is conducting an experiment on a block where he has removed the liners using his barbecue.

I don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet, but I've sent him gaskets and hardware to pin the liners.

We have some other tricks up our sleeves, stay tuned. If ti works, I may have a pretty large stock of "repaired" engines as back-ups for the century for my trucks

I was just thinking that one could set up a little side business taking old "blown" motors and rebuilding them.

 

[lforgue8]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

I was just thinking that one could set up a little side business taking old "blown" motors and rebuilding them.

oh im not sure really i think my buddy was into it for close to 1500 just in parts and machine shop work for the heads.....then all the labor time stripping cleaning and drill and tapping the pins, honing the pins, honing the cyl, new rings, bearings....etc

then after all that reassmble the motor and then a motor swap

just in my dealers experience it would be just 20 hrs or so for the engine swap

 

[singingcamel]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Great info , thanks for the time and effort and sharing . Vey nice work..

 

[antisoshal]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

If you pay someone to rebuild it, pay close attention to where they work. There's a shop near me that does rebuilds, and they aren't cheap. They do the rebuilds on a bench on one side of the shop, and 15 feet away is a welder that runs half of the day. The sand blaster is 15 feet in another direction. The paint booth with its perfectly sealed flap of visquene in front is another 20 feet away. The hardest part of rebuilding is having enough clean space and the patience to do it properly and meticulously. Anyone can buy a kit from JC Whitney, throw all the parts on the garage floor and put it back together. You'll get lots of practice that way because you'll be doing it again.

 

[KngTgr]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

If the liners are slipping, (Mine have been for 4 or 5 years or 35k miles) would they cause any catastrophic failure?

 

[ptschram]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

If you pay someone to rebuild it, pay close attention to where they work. There's a shop near me that does rebuilds, and they aren't cheap. They do the rebuilds on a bench on one side of the shop, and 15 feet away is a welder that runs half of the day. The sand blaster is 15 feet in another direction. The paint booth with its perfectly sealed flap of visquene in front is another 20 feet away. The hardest part of rebuilding is having enough clean space and the patience to do it properly and meticulously. Anyone can buy a kit from JC Whitney, throw all the parts on the garage floor and put it back together. You'll get lots of practice that way because you'll be doing it again.

LOL-I finally have a separate machine shop where I can do this sort of more precise work.

The only grinder in the room is for lathe bits and it gets used less frequently now that I'm using carbide inserts.

I've been teased mercilessly for the amount of time I spend assembling shortblocks. Eight hours to fit bearings is not uncommon. In the past 30+ years, I've not had a failure yet.

 

[brushogger]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

If the liners are slipping, (Mine have been for 4 or 5 years or 35k miles) would they cause any catastrophic failure?

BTDT. It's inevitable, but it may take a while.

 

[jhmover]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Call Disco Mike. He'll ask if you changed your oil and filter every 2000 miles then tell you it's all because you used a K&N filter.

Mine with 318k on it ticks. No coolant loss, no overheating. It was heating up last summer but a new HD fan clutch from NAPA took care of that. Uses a quart about every 1000 - 1500 miles, proabably leaks more than it burns.

 

[Blue]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

OK, we all agree (including the mechanics) that movement of the liner is not a myth. My point is that do you really think that moving liners is the cause of the ticking sound? If the liners are causing the very loud and rythmic tick on my D2 then they must be rattling around loose in there like dice shaking in your hand at a craps table.

 

[ukoffroad]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

what keeps them from sliding too far down? I admit I have not looked at them from below, the 2 head gasket jobs I have done were while the engine was still in place.