Chevy Volt

Jake

Jake

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Apr 20, 2004
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Oklahoma City, OK
ptschram said:
Peter-have you driven the diesel Freelander?

It might just change your mind about the Freelander. I put more than a thousand miles on one in '03. Loved it! 30 MPG+ @ 100 MPH on the motorways. Drove it on the mountain road to Aberystwyth-a four-wheel drive only fairly heavily traveled track (had to stop to open/close gates and shoo sheep away-it was lambing season).

Great fun.
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I rented a diesel Freelander in Heidelberg back in 97; drove it all over central Germany, France and Switzerland (maybe north Italy too, I forgot) and it was great. 30+ mpgs and I drove the pee out of it. Also rented a diesel Rover sedan, loved it. Liked both some much, I bought a Jeep Libby with the turbo diesel, since it was a Marini like the sedan had......:mad:
 
jhmover

jhmover

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2004
5,571
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California
Not selling antyhing?

Tesla had produced more than 1,200 Roadsters sold in at least 28 countries as of July 2010.[2] Tesla began producing right-hand-drive Roadsters in early 2010 for the British Isles, Australia, Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore

On 22 March 2010, Tesla ordered a minimum of 2,400 units from Lotus until 31 December 201

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster

Say what you want but at least their cars go more than 20-50-100 miles on a charge.
 
hackin5hit

hackin5hit

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Jan 28, 2011
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www.hackin5hit.com
1) Stop thinking the car makers are "beholdened to" or "pander to" the oil companies. They don't. The internal combustion engine, is, has been, and will be (for the foreseeable future) the most effective means of portable energy to propel a vehicle reliably and for long distances. There is no conspiracy by the Big 3 and the oil companies to prevent an electric car, despite what the conspiracy theorists claim (See: Who Killed the Electric Car).

Sorry, I may have come across as a conspiracy guy. I am not (well maybe a little). My point is that with such advances in technology and a market that is increasingly ready for an alternative, there isn't one. Some of the first cars were electric and failed because the tech wasn't there.

2) Tesla has crap for their battery technology. They take the batteries that are in your laptop and string them together. They use 6,831 lithium ion batteries (18650 cells - there are 6-9 in a laptop battery). They also have a tendency to have runaway chemical reactions and catch fire. Even if 18650 cells had a 1 in a million failure rate (they don't, it's worse), that means that roughly 1 in 1500 Teslas will go "POOF" in a flaming ball of fire (that you can't put out by conventional means, BTW). How long do you think a car company can stay in business with that kind of a failure rate?

2b) Nissan and GM (and lots of other companies: Dow-Kokam, A123, Johnson Controls, etc) are developing advanced batteries based on a prismatic (or pouch) cell design that has higher capacity per cell and increased reliability, but it's not simple.
If Honda got behind this, and used there global research and purchasing power, we would see advances in power tech as well. Think: capacitive/battery hybrid.

3) That $49K price tag? That's for a 160 mile range battery. You want 300 miles? That'll be another $20K.

I stand corrected. I can admit I missed that, thank you.

4) GM and Nissan WANT to get at production levels of thousands a month. You think only Honda can do that?

I know they can, I was using this as an example. ALL of the big manufacturers are capable of this.

5) Tesla has spent (reportedly) close to $500 million in development costs, and they still don't have anything selling. There is more to building a car (in production volumes) than meets the eye.

This is the point I was making above. Tesla is too small. The economy of scale is working against them. Because they're unable to produce large numbers of vehicles, their costs are higher for supplies and they have less vehicles to spread the R&D costs over. Just think what they could do with Honda's or Ford's level of purchasing/manufacturing.

Bottom line: making an effective, efficient, cost-comparable electric car is not trivial. It takes a lot of time, effort and money to design, and more importantly, produce (in significant volumes) electric cars (either hybrid (Volt) or all-electric (Leaf, Tesla).

The biggest issue is the battery technology - get enough power, enough capacity (miles to empty), low temperature performance (none work well below freezing), low cost (GM HOPES to have the battery pack cost DOWN TO $10-12K at full production in 10 years), and safety issues (they don't short internally and go BOOM). No one has the answer today, and it's not because GM isn't trying.


I am not trying to start a raging argument here either, but I do love a healthy debate.

I am by no means trying to say I have all the answers either, and would love to see what other people here think about this.

I have nothing against the big auto makers either. I just wish they would use their size to their advantage, and get behind this in a more efficient manner. It seems that they forget the power of marketing. If marketers can get people to consistently watch "The Jersey Shore", then they can surely get people to want a decent EV.

Yes, I am a hippy. No, I don't have a TV anymore. And remember, when you think about conspiracy theories, that gravity is only a theory.



John.
 
DiscoJen

DiscoJen

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Aug 27, 2004
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Fuck 30mpg diesels...my 2007 Scion xB is getting 40+mpg. And it's big enough that I can fit an XL Igloo dog house in it, or a full size mattress, or two club chairs, and more with the gate closed. With the gate open I've hauled 4x4 fence posts, pickets, etc. All this with some fly ass rims and lo-pros tru dat. Sure, it's still using fossil fuels, but with that kind of mileage, seats 5 with TONS of leg room, and the ability to haul crap around, these tiny electric cars have a long way to go compared to my box.
 
jhmover

jhmover

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2004
5,571
3
California
DiscoJen said:
Fuck 30mpg diesels...my 2007 Scion xB is getting 40+mpg. And it's big enough that I can fit an XL Igloo dog house in it, or a full size mattress, or two club chairs, and more with the gate closed. With the gate open I've hauled 4x4 fence posts, pickets, etc. All this with some fly ass rims and lo-pros tru dat. Sure, it's still using fossil fuels, but with that kind of mileage, seats 5 with TONS of leg room, and the ability to haul crap around, these tiny electric cars have a long way to go compared to my box.
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So what are you using the mattress for? :rofl:
 
SGaynor

SGaynor

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Dec 6, 2006
7,148
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Bristol, TN
hackin5hit said:
This is the point I was making above. Tesla is too small. The economy of scale is working against them. Because they're unable to produce large numbers of vehicles, their costs are higher for supplies and they have less vehicles to spread the R&D costs over. Just think what they could do with Honda's or Ford's level of purchasing/manufacturing.
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No flame war here (sorry if it came across that way).

Here's your argument in a nut shell: If only the major manufacturers would try, they could make an electric car.

Here's the hole in your argument: It's not just about economy of scale-the major manufacturers are trying-but it's about technology and cost. Yes, they can make an electric car, but it costs a fortune. And it's not nearly as reliable.

There aren't technology solutions that make a cost effective car, today (and I wonder if there ever will).

Tesla is a niche company. They just put an electric engine in a Lotus. Will they be around in 10 years to back up their product when the batteries start failing? IMO, I doubt it.

BTW - Welcome to D-web.
 
knewsom

knewsom

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Jul 10, 2008
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La Mancha, CA
SGaynor said:
5) Tesla has spent (reportedly) close to $500 million in development costs, and they still don't have anything selling. There is more to building a car (in production volumes) than meets the eye.
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Incorrect - they do sell cars - in fact, every single one they made is sold, and there's a damned waiting list to GET one (with a $5,000 charge to GET on that list). They can't meet their demand.

This makes me think it's not as niche as you may think. That new Tesla S looks absolutely OUTSTANDING, and I fuckin' WANT one. BAD. I'm gonna start saving. I don't care if it's only a 160 mile range, whatevs. Farthest I drive these days is between SD and LA.
 
B

bigred

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Apr 20, 2004
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www.hillbillytrailcrew.com
I'll jump in here and say that the Volt is actually a nice car. I've got one in my garage charging right now. I'm blown away by how well it rides and the technology they've put into it. I had very low expectations and was blown away.
 
SGaynor

SGaynor

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Dec 6, 2006
7,148
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Bristol, TN
knewsom said:
Incorrect - they do sell cars - in fact, every single one they made is sold, and there's a damned waiting list to GET one (with a $5,000 charge to GET on that list). They can't meet their demand.

This makes me think it's not as niche as you may think. That new Tesla S looks absolutely OUTSTANDING, and I fuckin' WANT one. BAD. I'm gonna start saving. I don't care if it's only a 160 mile range, whatevs. Farthest I drive these days is between SD and LA.
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$50-100K for a sedan? Really? What's the market for that?

Just because there's a waiting list, doesn't mean it's the end all, be all (See: Bottdorff)

It's a hand built, niche car. That's all it will be.
 
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