Blue said:
Next time you're at Wal Mart picking up your wife beaters, check and see what the parking lot is full of. Pontiac Grand Ams and Sunfires with Mossy Oak seat covers.
That's who buys GM products.
Chevy Volt
- Thread starter Mike_Rupp
- Start date
Next time you're at Wal Mart picking up your wife beaters, check and see what the parking lot is full of. Pontiac Grand Ams and Sunfires with Mossy Oak seat covers.
That's who buys GM products.
p m said:
That's true. I try to drive everything I can when I come across cars I haven't seen before. Some of those diesels are as you say, but they never really annoyed me any more than a V6.
At least they aren't as aspirational.
It would just be nice to have some of the options everyone else has. I'm now seeing the Sprinter really coming into it's own down here. That's a tough one. If that thing can sell in eastern North Carolina, it can sell anywhere. I really like those. I want one, actually, but I don't really need one for anything.:rofl:
We got the Transit Connect, which is a bit of a limp-wristed pitch from Ford, but it's something. We may never get the Transit, but at least we got the sort of van that those silly Germans seem to love, which is a cheap car with a box on the back. That said, when I saw it, I kind of wanted one of those as well...
We even got the Fiesta. NICE! Now, where is my fucking two-door? I'd love to get my paws on one of those.
I hope the Fiat 500 sells. It's a cool car, and it will be nice to have something with a bit of serious class in that segment.
Cheers,
Kennith
ptschram
Well-known member
p m said:
Peter-have you driven the diesel Freelander?
It might just change your mind about the Freelander. I put more than a thousand miles on one in '03. Loved it! 30 MPG+ @ 100 MPH on the motorways. Drove it on the mountain road to Aberystwyth-a four-wheel drive only fairly heavily traveled track (had to stop to open/close gates and shoo sheep away-it was lambing season).
Great fun.
the only purpose for the volt (prius, leaf, lexus hybirids ect..) is CAFE. any other reason is BS to sell the product....
Paul - no, never had a chance. Couldn't find an online outfit in France/Italy/Switzerland that would rent a 4x4, period (some had them on the books, but listed as unavailable).
Kennith - I've owned a British Ford Transit van, with a 2-liter four-banger, and it was a blast to drive. Gear stalk about a meter long, wobbling all over the place. The bugger could easily move past the end of 90-mph speedo, and, driven around ~60mph, would take about 11-12 liters/100km (roughly, 20 mpg).
Kennith - I've owned a British Ford Transit van, with a 2-liter four-banger, and it was a blast to drive. Gear stalk about a meter long, wobbling all over the place. The bugger could easily move past the end of 90-mph speedo, and, driven around ~60mph, would take about 11-12 liters/100km (roughly, 20 mpg).
Pieces of shit if you ask me..
Can't go very far before recharge, and remember their building these with our $$$. or have they paid us back?
Can't go very far before recharge, and remember their building these with our $$$. or have they paid us back?
It's amazing to me how GM and Ford have gone in polar opposite directions over the last 10 years. Was it a rumor that William Ford walked in on a board meeting in the early 2000's and fired everyone one of them claiming to be driving the family business into the ground?
kennith said:
A Fiat dealership just opened up in my town. I've never seen a stand alone Fiat dealer, but I hope it does well.
garrett said:
You cant educate the unwilling.
I see the same thing here but its Neons and any type of old conversion van with at least one window bashed out and a juggalo sticker on the back.
Automobiles will not be effecient in the US until our gas prices go up. People will not understand that mid 20s is not good. Mid 30s is not even that good. There will be low demand for efficient vehicles until gas prices actually hurt peoples pockets. That being said, people will continue to pay, only thing that will change is the vehicles they're driving, not as much the amount they're driving.
Ford KAs will get 40+mpg combined city/highway and travel at 70+mph happily all day. They are tiny two door specs. They get the job done efficiently without the use of hybrid technology. Vehicles like the KA made by US companies won't be available in the US until something like the Fiat 500 does well or gas prices go up. As soon as companies see that people are buying vehicles like that and the demand can meet a profit for them, they'll create it. As long as dumbasses keep buying huge ass trucks and cars that get shitty gas mileage, they'll keep selling them. They don't care about the environment, they care about profit(Well most, GM sucks and apparently doesn't care about profit, just making crap automobiles. I'd really love to sit in on the meetings where people sign off on the autos they're making.)
Ford KAs will get 40+mpg combined city/highway and travel at 70+mph happily all day. They are tiny two door specs. They get the job done efficiently without the use of hybrid technology. Vehicles like the KA made by US companies won't be available in the US until something like the Fiat 500 does well or gas prices go up. As soon as companies see that people are buying vehicles like that and the demand can meet a profit for them, they'll create it. As long as dumbasses keep buying huge ass trucks and cars that get shitty gas mileage, they'll keep selling them. They don't care about the environment, they care about profit(Well most, GM sucks and apparently doesn't care about profit, just making crap automobiles. I'd really love to sit in on the meetings where people sign off on the autos they're making.)
MarkP said:
For roughly the same price, you can get a 300mi range @ ~300hp 7 seater sex machine that quick-charges 75% of its battery in 45 minutes:
Tesla Model S
Fuck Chevy, and fuck the rest of the auto makers that still pander to the oil companies by producing grossly inefficient "eco-friendly" vehicles, then releasing them in limited geographies for exorbitant prices. For $50k, I want results.
They're only making an initial run of 5,000. Don't expect them to solve the fuel crisis anytime soon.
Like the last hike, I expect to see tons of commuters on motorcycles. My neighbor bought a used GXSR and could run on a $14 tank for 11 days.
\hackin5hit said:For roughly the same price, you can get a 300mi range @ ~300hp 7 seater sex machine that quick-charges 75% of its battery in 45 minutes:
Tesla Model S
Fuck Chevy, and fuck the rest of the auto makers that still pander to the oil companies by producing grossly inefficient "eco-friendly" vehicles, then releasing them in limited geographies for exorbitant prices. For $50k, I want results.
I like this guy! speaks well.
Looks like that 45 minute charge is only with a fast charging station.
How long does it take to recharge Model S?
Charging times are based on battery size and the combined voltage and amperage of the power source. Regular wall outlets carry an electrical feed of 110 volts at either 12 or 15 Amps and charge slowly. A 220 volt outlet, such as your clothes dryer outlet, can charge Model S from empty to full overnight. Model S is capable of recharging in 45 minutes using a fast charging station.
How long does it take to recharge Model S?
Charging times are based on battery size and the combined voltage and amperage of the power source. Regular wall outlets carry an electrical feed of 110 volts at either 12 or 15 Amps and charge slowly. A 220 volt outlet, such as your clothes dryer outlet, can charge Model S from empty to full overnight. Model S is capable of recharging in 45 minutes using a fast charging station.
I know that the limited run of an "exotic" will not change the industry or save the world. My point is that there is a way to do this more efficiently. If one, just one, of the BIG auto makers could leverage their manufacturing capabilities to produce a vehicle on par to the Tesla, we may see a real competitor in the "eco" class. The economy of scale that a major auto manufacturer can take advantage of is out of reach for a small boutique auto-maker like Tesla.
Imagine using the buying power and manufacturing facilities of, say Honda, to push the "Model S" out. They can make roughly 1200 cars per day at just ONE of their facilities (http://www.ohio.honda.com/manufacturing/map.cfm gives a stat of 440,000 vehicles per year). With that kind of economy of scale, there could be a real competitor on the market.
jhmover:
I know the specs i quoted were for the quick charger, and I guess that wasn't fair to do. But let's say you wanted to do a road trip in a standard EV: you get 40-50mi from an all-electric, no good. Try an hybrid: 70mpg and unlimited range, but still paying for gas, but better (may be best for overall use) and leaves much room for improvement in the efficiency with energy storage. Now look at Tesla: 300mi, stop and visit a tourist attraction, and eat while you charge, get another 150-200mi then stop for a night (and charge) and do it again. I know the hybrid is the probably best of the three, but for an EV the Tesla is very capable and with some real support, could change the game.
Just a thought.
Sorry to run on like the "K".
John.
Imagine using the buying power and manufacturing facilities of, say Honda, to push the "Model S" out. They can make roughly 1200 cars per day at just ONE of their facilities (http://www.ohio.honda.com/manufacturing/map.cfm gives a stat of 440,000 vehicles per year). With that kind of economy of scale, there could be a real competitor on the market.
jhmover:
I know the specs i quoted were for the quick charger, and I guess that wasn't fair to do. But let's say you wanted to do a road trip in a standard EV: you get 40-50mi from an all-electric, no good. Try an hybrid: 70mpg and unlimited range, but still paying for gas, but better (may be best for overall use) and leaves much room for improvement in the efficiency with energy storage. Now look at Tesla: 300mi, stop and visit a tourist attraction, and eat while you charge, get another 150-200mi then stop for a night (and charge) and do it again. I know the hybrid is the probably best of the three, but for an EV the Tesla is very capable and with some real support, could change the game.
Just a thought.
Sorry to run on like the "K".
John.
John,
Don't get the impression I am knocking either car. I think they're on to something and agree with the POS GM Volt. Just trying to put forth what the charge time is with the quick charger vs. 240 or 120 volt plugs.
FYI while I was nosing around I found out that Harris Ranch on I-5 is putting in quick chargers. Since it's about the only safe place to eat on I-5 in the Central Valley it would make a trip to LA very feasible without much delay. You could have a nice steak dinner and by the time you were done the car would be charged and ready to go. Good way for Harris to get business. Only problem would be if they end up with more EV's than chargers.
Don't get the impression I am knocking either car. I think they're on to something and agree with the POS GM Volt. Just trying to put forth what the charge time is with the quick charger vs. 240 or 120 volt plugs.
FYI while I was nosing around I found out that Harris Ranch on I-5 is putting in quick chargers. Since it's about the only safe place to eat on I-5 in the Central Valley it would make a trip to LA very feasible without much delay. You could have a nice steak dinner and by the time you were done the car would be charged and ready to go. Good way for Harris to get business. Only problem would be if they end up with more EV's than chargers.
Volt sales down, Fuel prices suddenly raising again.....hmmmm. Everytime i'm behind a prius i think about how much better his brakes probably work than mine and then i close the gap a little
hackin5hit said:
hackin5hit said:
I guess I'll jump in and defend the Big 2.5...
1) Stop thinking the car makers are "beholdened to" or "pander to" the oil companies. They don't. The internal combustion engine, is, has been, and will be (for the foreseeable future) the most effective means of portable energy to propel a vehicle reliably and for long distances. There is no conspiracy by the Big 3 and the oil companies to prevent an electric car, despite what the conspiracy theorists claim (See: Who Killed the Electric Car).
2) Tesla has crap for their battery technology. They take the batteries that are in your laptop and string them together. They use 6,831 lithium ion batteries (18650 cells - there are 6-9 in a laptop battery). They also have a tendency to have runaway chemical reactions and catch fire. Even if 18650 cells had a 1 in a million failure rate (they don't, it's worse), that means that roughly 1 in 1500 Teslas will go "POOF" in a flaming ball of fire (that you can't put out by conventional means, BTW). How long do you think a car company can stay in business with that kind of a failure rate?
2b) Nissan and GM (and lots of other companies: Dow-Kokam, A123, Johnson Controls, etc) are developing advanced batteries based on a prismatic (or pouch) cell design that has higher capacity per cell and increased reliability, but it's not simple.
3) That $49K price tag? That's for a 160 mile range battery. You want 300 miles? That'll be another $20K.
4) GM and Nissan WANT to get at production levels of thousands a month. You think only Honda can do that?
5) Tesla has spent (reportedly) close to $500 million in development costs, and they still don't have anything selling. There is more to building a car (in production volumes) than meets the eye.
Bottom line: making an effective, efficient, cost-comparable electric car is not trivial. It takes a lot of time, effort and money to design, and more importantly, produce (in significant volumes) electric cars (either hybrid (Volt) or all-electric (Leaf, Tesla).
The biggest issue is the battery technology - get enough power, enough capacity (miles to empty), low temperature performance (none work well below freezing), low cost (GM HOPES to have the battery pack cost DOWN TO $10-12K at full production in 10 years), and safety issues (they don't short internally and go BOOM). No one has the answer today, and it's not because GM isn't trying.