Damn Throttle Body Pre-Heater Gasket Again

best4x4

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2015
595
72
Beaumont, TX
Well “if” anyone has experienced a frozen throttle body on a D2/P38 with a Bosch setup they need to fully document it a little bit more than just oh my throttle body froze up on me. Like weather conditions, pictures, and a detailed description of events.

In my experience I’ve seen plenty of sticking TB’s from being dirty that even after be sprayed and wiped down with brake cleaner/TB cleaner would still stick, some were worn out TB cables, or a CC cable that got stuck, and some were from the TB plate itself being dirty around the outside edge of the plate. After removing the TB plate and using a scotch-bite on it the TB then did not stick.

“If” a TB freezes I could certainly see it doing so from being dirty, a cable, and then colder temps. Heat rises and the TB is almost mounted directly over the exhaust manifold. I could see a snorkel also not helping the situation, but to just blame it solely on the lack of a TBH isn’t enough IMHO. There are plenty of vehicles in Alaska/Canada that do not come equipped with a TBH and I have owned several of them without any mention of them freezing by owners in cold climates.
 

kcabpilot

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2006
334
1
California
Yup, that's been my take on it too. You'll find all sorts of opinions on why there is a TBH in various forums on the internet, most of them completely unsubstantiated. For one thing there are cars that don't have it and another, as I said earlier, even airplanes with throttle bodies don't have a heater circuit.

If you look back at cars in the 70's you began to see the tubes from the exhaust manifold to the intake filter housing. This was all about emissions control. In fact most of the equipment for emissions is related to reducing the pollution from a cold engine or one that is decelerating or accelerating. You can tune even an old carbureted pushrod V8 to run perfectly clean at cruise load and rpm but anything other than that and it goes way off.

So IMO that's what this TBH is - a piece of emissions equipment, nothing more, nothing less and throttles aren't going to freeze up due to "wind chill" or anything like that.

Of course I could, just lke 98% of the rest of the people on the internet, be completely wrong. :)
 

pdogg

Well-known member
Jul 18, 2005
1,216
29
Phoenix, AZ
Throttle Body de-icer is exactly what it sounds like.. prevents ice from building up in the throttle body and possible frozen throttle. It's a safety feature. Has zero to do with emissions ..
 

kcabpilot

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2006
334
1
California
Well first off it's not called a "de-icer" anywhere but in internet forums. I know a lot of people assume that's what it is but I read a tech document once (I'll see if I can find it) that said its purpose is to reduce carbon accumulation from hot PCV gasses that are routed through the intake. So my take is that qualifies as "emissions" equipment.
 

rovercanus

Well-known member
Apr 24, 2004
9,651
246
People on this forum keep getting dumber.
Temperature. mid to low 20's, time 7 am, humidity, don't have any fucking idea. Repaired throttle body deicer correctly instead of being a stupid cheap fuck who should probably ride an Uber to ballet class instead of working on their own vehicles. Never cleaned the throttle body, never changed "worn" cables, never happened again.
The excuses people make to hack their repairs is entertaining.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Well first off it's not called a "de-icer" anywhere but in internet forums. I know a lot of people assume that's what it is but I read a tech document once (I'll see if I can find it) that said its purpose is to reduce carbon accumulation from hot PCV gasses that are routed through the intake. So my take is that qualifies as "emissions" equipment.

It's called a throttle body heater plate.

Tapping a tiny amount of heat energy from a coolant circuit that maxes on average in the low 200 degree range, sinking it through pot metal, a gasket, and cast aluminum, right smack dab in the middle of airflow...

That ain't wiping any carbon, dude. I don't give a shit what that paper said.

Cheers,

Kennith

Edit: Removed irrelevant information.
 
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jymmiejamz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2004
6,008
361
35
Los Angeles, Ca
Well ?if? anyone has experienced a frozen throttle body on a D2/P38 with a Bosch setup they need to fully document it a little bit more than just oh my throttle body froze up on me. Like weather conditions, pictures, and a detailed description of events.

Do you by any chance believe the earth is flat?
 

kcabpilot

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2006
334
1
California
The TB on a Ferrari 308QV that redlines at 7700 rpm so I’m sure gets plenty of “wind chill” has no heater and not a single case of one ever freezing up. How is that possible? Millions of other cars don’t have it as well. Have any of you guys ever seen frost on your throttle body? Get real, it’s right on top of the engine, it’s physically connected to it. How is ice going to form there? Trust me, it’s a myth that this is a “safety device” Show me an official document, not somebody’s self proclaimed expert opinion, that says that and I’ll believe you. The Rave manual doesn’t say a single thing about it other than that it exists.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
The TB on a Ferrari 308QV that redlines at 7700 rpm so I?m sure gets plenty of ?wind chill? has no heater and not a single case of one ever freezing up. How is that possible? Millions of other cars don?t have it as well. Have any of you guys ever seen frost on your throttle body? Get real, it?s right on top of the engine, it?s physically connected to it. How is ice going to form there? Trust me, it?s a myth that this is a ?safety device? Show me an official document, not somebody?s self proclaimed expert opinion, that says that and I?ll believe you. The Rave manual doesn?t say a single thing about it other than that it exists.

I don't care if you believe me or not, but people shouldn't believe you.

Your contention is nonsense.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

kcabpilot

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2006
334
1
California
Actually your contention is nonsense but I happen to know where it comes from and that was mentioned earlier. Piston engined aircraft have always been susceptible to a malady known as carburetor ice (the ones with carburetors) and so they all have a knob on the panel called "Carburetor Heat" that you pull out every time you reduce power for landing, or fly through a cloud or if the rpm's drop or the engine starts to run rough or any other inexplicable anomaly you might suspect as carb ice. But carburetor ice forms in the venturi, it chokes off the intake path, it doesn't "freeze" your throttle. There's no such thing as throttles fre ezing, never has been. Airplanes that are fuel injected and have a throttle body just like on the Disco don't even have that knob, don't have anything to heat the TB. And guess what? It never freezes.

Believe it or not it is completely impossible for your throttle to "freeze up" as you are contending, it's basic physics. You are perpetuating a myth.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Actually your contention is nonsense but I happen to know where it comes from and that was mentioned earlier. Piston engined aircraft have always been susceptible to a malady known as carburetor ice (the ones with carburetors) and so they all have a knob on the panel called "Carburetor Heat" that you pull out every time you reduce power for landing, or fly through a cloud or if the rpm's drop or the engine starts to run rough or any other inexplicable anomaly you might suspect as carb ice. But carburetor ice forms in the venturi, it chokes off the intake path, it doesn't "freeze" your throttle. There's no such thing as throttles fre ezing, never has been. Airplanes that are fuel injected and have a throttle body just like on the Disco don't even have that knob, don't have anything to heat the TB. And guess what? It never freezes.

Believe it or not it is completely impossible for your throttle to "freeze up" as you are contending, it's basic physics. You are perpetuating a myth.

I perpetuate no myths.

You've just got a degree from Google. :rofl:

Enough of this. I won't teach you.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

best4x4

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2015
595
72
Beaumont, TX
DiscoMike had his disconnected 10 years and was up in cold weather often. A P-51 V12 has carbs vs a Bosch fuel injected V8. Search for throttle icing/freezing results in TBI or carb results. Nada on fuel injected engines.

Way more Jeep 4.0L I6 engines out there and not one case of a frozen TB. Only LR TSB for a TB is with a cable issue on early models, or the TSB for the TBH plate leaking.
 

p m

Administrator
Staff member
Apr 19, 2004
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La Jolla, CA
www.3rj.org
Believe it or not it is completely impossible for your throttle to "freeze up" as you are contending, it's basic physics. You are perpetuating a myth.

It blows my mind as to what extent people can argue for a lack of necessity of a repair or replacement of a 30-dollar part.

But since you invoked physics, I'll bite and waste some time here. Just so we keep a Discoweb tradition of keeping misinformation at bay.

You are driving along, on a sunny 80F day (about 300K), at sea level, at about a third of a throttle. Your manifold pressure is about 7.4 psi (about one-half of atmospheric pressure).

What do you think happens to air that goes from atmospheric pressure to one-half of atmospheric pressure behind the throttle plate, in a matter of milliseconds?

[You as] a person enlightened in basic physics will know that it is pretty close to adiabatic expansion. When a quantity of gas experiences a drop of pressure, it experienced adiabatic cooling. Wikipedia has all relevant basic thermodynamics info on this subject; I will skip all derivations and just tell you that the 300K/80F air drops down to ~246K, or ~-17F.
There's not a slightest doubt that the moisture contained in the air will freeze. The question is how does it apply to the throttle plate, throttle body, and things around.

There are several factors offsetting a pretty gargantuan temperature drop -
(a) laminar boundary layer - the temperature drop actually occurs away from the throttle plate itself, because the air velocity on its surface is zero. So it gets cooled off, just not directly but by convection and by radiation (of the plate, not of the air).
(b) dilution of the cool air by the volume of air inside plenum / intake manifold (which itself sits on top of the engine and is usually warm).
(c) heating of the throttle body from everything else outside it in the engine compartment.

So the question becomes if/in what conditions air cooling is of sufficient concern. Again, for FAA it seems to be a pretty cut and dry case - the aircraft engine, regardless of whether it is fuel-injected or carburetted, WILL sooner or later experience these conditions and therefore MUST have remedial means. I quoted you the regs, but you, as a pilot, should have known this (but since you, as a self-professed basic physics-educated person, should have known that there is zero difference in principle of adiabatic cooling between a venturi and throttle opening and don't, I don't have too much hope).

For ground vehicles' engines every manufacturer weighs the engine layout (e.g., how good is heat transfer from the engine block to intake and to throttle body), the cost of throttle body heater implementation, and the liabilty from both sides: customers who'd bitch about every coolant leak vs. customers killed in accidents when they find themselves with open throttle. Some manufacturers save money by optionally installing it on vehicles in excessively humid or cold climates.

Land Rover decided to do what they thought was right for Land Rover and installed thottle body heaters. Of course this particular D2 part happened to be one of many fuck-ups BMW brought in its brief ownership of Land Rover; it is a lot less frequent issue in pre-Bosch vehicles (as far as I know).

Now, as far as battle cries for evidence: there will be next to none "anecdotal" evidence of this ever happening, because, should it happen to you, you'll think "WTF???" and try to kill the engine/downshift/brake/slow down and pull over. By the time you pop the hood and start fiddling with throttle cables, it will have melted and everything will be peachy. I believe the only real evidence and statistics can come from manufacturers who have the most experience with drive-by-wire throttle controls, like GM - but I don't think they'll be very open about it.

To conclude: the chance of throttle freezing over is about the same as the chance of a brake line snap, with the same consequences. The decision on whether to replace a $30 part or argue about a lack of need for it is all yours.

By the way, Jimmy as usual gets the grand prize for mention of RightStuff instead of paper gaskets with this part.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
DiscoMike had his disconnected 10 years and was up in cold weather often. A P-51 V12 has carbs vs a Bosch fuel injected V8. Search for throttle icing/freezing results in TBI or carb results. Nada on fuel injected engines.

Way more Jeep 4.0L I6 engines out there and not one case of a frozen TB. Only LR TSB for a TB is with a cable issue on early models, or the TSB for the TBH plate leaking.

Disco Mike is a well-known moron. He's a joke. He's the ass-end of technical humor. I wouldn't invoke that name to back a point around here. It will have the opposite of the intended effect.

Fuel injected engines do indeed suffer the same issue, regardless of what someone might think they know.

I've already heard that bullshit enough in this thread. Stop posting it, as we've all seen the posts at this point.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
I believe the only real evidence and statistics can come from manufacturers who have the most experience with drive-by-wire throttle controls, like GM - but I don't think they'll be very open about it.
Another example: VW's drive-by-wire throttle bodies have coolant heating...https://www.europaparts.com/throttl...MIy_O66u_O3AIVyUoNCh06TQlnEAQYAiABEgL5BvD_BwE


By the way, Jimmy as usual gets the grand prize for mention of RightStuff instead of paper gaskets with this part.

What about Great Stuff? It is an insulation...:D
 

best4x4

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2015
595
72
Beaumont, TX
Never said it couldn’t happen, and I go back to my original statement “it’s as common as a big foot sighting”.

Sure it’s a 30.00 part, but it will NEVER stop being a problem. Even if it never seeps at the plate I’ve seen the nipples corrode right off, it is a piss poor quality part, and it will fail time and time again. Also most of the one’s I’ve removed were 100% clogged up and doing absolutely nothing anyways! LR engineers (especially when it was 50% British/50% German DID NOT make the best decisions.

I’ll take my chances seeing big foot vs knowing for sure it’s a spot for air to get into the system, and for coolant to get out. Maybe a frozen TB which fixes itself once you stop and open the hood as you put it, or a completely dead 4.0/4.6L from overheating & warped heads, the choice is yours.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Never said it couldn?t happen, and I go back to my original statement ?it?s as common as a big foot sighting?.

Sure it?s a 30.00 part, but it will NEVER stop being a problem. Even if it never seeps at the plate I?ve seen the nipples corrode right off, it is a piss poor quality part, and it will fail time and time again. Also most of the one?s I?ve removed were 100% clogged up and doing absolutely nothing anyways! LR engineers (especially when it was 50% British/50% German DID NOT make the best decisions.

I?ll take my chances seeing big foot vs knowing for sure it?s a spot for air to get into the system, and for coolant to get out. Maybe a frozen TB which fixes itself once you stop and open the hood as you put it, or a completely dead 4.0/4.6L from overheating & warped heads, the choice is yours.

The clogs are going to happen as a result of Dexcool, primarily. It was a poor choice of coolant specification, and has damaged many engines.

Long idling periods in certain weather conditions can cause ice-related seizing of the throttle body. The heater just prevents condensation from reaching that point and stops a few other factors that could cause the same issue. People seem to forget that Rovers are fielded in every environment imaginable. It doesn't even have to be cold outside for it to happen.

Indeed, I've observed it myself on a RV8 under very specific conditions. Not everyone has a "trail rig" or a runabout. Some people take the buggers out and use the hell out of them as Land Rover always intended in extreme environmental conditions.

The part quality is not in question. It sucks. That's why I ordered the Falconworks unit. I could have made it myself, but I don't have the time, and a commission would be even more expensive. I expect it will completely eliminate the issue.

The thing is, lots of people complain about production moving here or there, and good old American manufacturing. They go on about supporting our own production and the people behind it. Then, they see the price, and do the exact same thing manufacturers have done in turn: They buy some Chinese shit.

They need to put their money where their mouths are and support people who support their enthusiasm. I don't want to hear about nightmarish expenses and budgets. If that's a problem, you bought the wrong car. Period.

Suck it up and pay to play, even if it requires ramen noodles, or sell out and buy something they can afford to maintain properly. There's no middle ground.

The reason there's not much in the way of aftermarket part options and accessories for these vehicles has nothing to do with Land Rover. It has to do with everyone cheaping out instead of supporting the quality aftermarket. There are enough owner enthusiasts to support an aftermarket community, but they choose not to.

Indeed, half the reason I bought it was because I'm concerned they might not be around after a while.

This entire thread of griping... There is a part made by people who specialize in Rovers that claims to be a permanent solution. If it is, there is little excuse not to own one.

Cheers,

Kennith