Debates, 2004

p m

Administrator
Staff member
Apr 19, 2004
15,642
867
58
La Jolla, CA
www.3rj.org
Craig, stop bitching - you knew where you were headed when you applied to graduate school. BTDT...

Now, IMHO - a lot of university science is done by the hands of graduate students. This has its ups and downs - it's way cheaper that way, but, on the other hand, level of responsibility and quality of work is not that great. Please don't take it personally - I thought it was completely acceptable until I left UC to work for a private company.
This is not to make any implications to as far as how to fund science - it is, and has to be, funded by the government. But I feel these funds are often grossly mismanaged by academia.
 

utahdog2003

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
1,842
0
North Florida
Eric N. said:
http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/a_three_sections_with_teasers/votes.htm


If you have lots of free time and want to learn the truth about Kerry, here you go, this will give you from 1989 to now... Like I said before.. Listen to what he says to people and what he promisses and then look how he votes.. The guy just isn't right. If you want more then that you'll have to go to the library to look it up and I'm not talking about your local one. As for his service record I'll leave that alone cause I'm more concerned about his Senate record which has an effect on all of us right now not 33 years ago.

I'm off the soap box now cause I get a little worked up when I see people actually believing this guy and I'm having a good day and I want to keep it that way.

Too bad your link doesn't include complete info on all the little stupid ryders politicians put on these bills? I'm all for Free Twinkies for everybody, but if you add a ryder to my Free Twinkie bill that says you get to lawfully Stomp on Kittens, then I'm going to vote you down, even if it means "Waffling" and voting against my own bill. Happens all the time. Called 'government'.

What are you, like 12?
 
C

cmondieyoung

Guest
You're right, I am bitching.

Not about my chosen profession, but about people like Aaron who have such abject disregard and disrespect for it.

Indulge me a little rant now and then. :p
 

p m

Administrator
Staff member
Apr 19, 2004
15,642
867
58
La Jolla, CA
www.3rj.org
... also, I wonder how come the subject of unions was never broached during the debates. As if both Bush and Kerry don't know what's the reason behind unemployment in the rust belt.
 

Steve

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
1,395
0
Eastern Shore of MD
An email I received from a friend... thought it interesting to share.

Let me see; have I got this straight?


Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...

Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...



Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good...

Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad...



Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...

Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...



Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists- good...

Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad...



Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good...

Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad...



Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...

Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...



No mass graves found in Serbia - good...

No WMD found Iraq - bad...



Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...

Economy on upswing under Bush - bad...



Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...

World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad...



Clinton says Saddam has nukes - good...

Bush says Saddam has nukes - bad...



Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...

Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...



Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...

Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...



Milosevic not yet convicted - good...

Saddam turned over for trial - bad...



Every year an independent tax watchdog group analyzes the average tax burden on Americans, and then calculates the "Tax Freedom Day." This is the day after which the money you earn goes to you, not the government. This year, tax freedom day was April 11th. That's the earliest it has been since 1991. Its latest day ever was May 2nd, which occurred while Clinton was in office 2000.


Recently, John Kerry gave a speech in which he claimed Americans are actually paying more taxes under Bush, despite the tax cuts. He gave no explanation and provided no data for this claim.


Another interesting fact: Both George Bush and John Kerry are wealthy men. Bush owns only one home, his ranch in Texas. Kerry owns 4 mansions, all worth several million dollars. (His ski resort home in Idaho is an old barn brought over from Europe in pieces. Not your average A-frame).

Bush paid $250,000 in taxes this year; Kerry paid $90,000. Does that sound right? The man who wants to raise your taxes obviously has figured out a way to avoid paying his own.
 

Eric N.

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
3,980
0
Falls Church, VA
Sure it does.. You have to actually click on the bill number and it will show you them and their numbers so that you can look them up...

12, that's pretty good.
 

Steve

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
1,395
0
Eastern Shore of MD
cmondieyoung said:
You're right, I am bitching.

Not about my chosen profession, but about people like Aaron who have such abject disregard and disrespect for it.

Aaron. Aren't you a Doctor? I thought you were in the advanced medicines field or something.
 

Mike_Rupp

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2004
3,604
0
Mercer Island, WA
Utahdog, I agree with you completely regarding the budget. The tax cuts Increased the total amount of tax revenue to the government. The problem, clearly, is with spending. It boils down to the fact that there are too many spending programs that blow the budget, such as paying for Craig Lee's stipend. When I got my graduate degree, I was working full-time and paid for my tuition except for $5k/yr assistance through my company. I didn't have to take from the public to get my education.
 

utahdog2003

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
1,842
0
North Florida
Mike, I might throw you a strap after all! ;) except for...
Mike_Rupp said:
When I got my graduate degree, I was working full-time and paid for my tuition except for $5k/yr assistance through my company. I didn't have to take from the public to get my education.
and I'm sure your company never got reimbursed in any way... ;)

Eric, read your ryders...try hard...spell out the words...P...O...R...K...!

Craig...hang tough man. Remember, that as Republicans stretch the education budget thinner and thinner and people get stupider and stupider, the number of dolts who find comfort in Neo-Con one-liners will grow. Then the fight will really be on.

Finally if the right can post long winded shit, then so can the left...Have a good weekend!!!

"A DAY IN THE LIFE OF JOE REPUBLICAN"

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union.

If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that his in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university. Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the tax-payer funded roads.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans.

The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."
 
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Eric N.

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
3,980
0
Falls Church, VA
What are you talking about... Most of the bills that were rejected were because the Dems tried to attatch every thing they could to them... I have never seen so many bills have gun issues slapped on them in my life as I have these last couple of years. Just to use that as an example.. There were a lot of good bills that could have helped people that were killed due to the Dems and Reps adding to much crap to them. More so with the Dems though.. Crap that didn't even have anything to do with the original bill at all. I hate that crap..

My wife works for a Senator so I don't need you telling me how things work at the capital...

Hey, I have to give you one thing though.. At least you aren't sitting around letting every one else vote for you. Even if you vote for Kerry at least you got up and voted.. Voted for the wrong guy but voted none the less :D
 
A

AndyThoma

Guest
cmondieyoung said:
You're right, I am bitching.

Not about my chosen profession, but about people like Aaron who have such abject disregard and disrespect for it.

Indulge me a little rant now and then. :p


If it's any help, he really got me pissed off too when I posted my rant. My wife and I work our asses off for the little money the government pays us. When she went back to school full time it was $30k a year income drop for us. :eek:


I'm not bitching, we choose this path on our own free will and it will pay off in the end. But saying grad students are on the same level as a welfare recipant is bull shit.
 

MarkP

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2004
6,672
0
Colorado
Steve - good summary of Clinton vs. Bush. The mainstream media is upset because Bush upset the status quo. I suspect that if you "follow the money" you will find who is upset, like France. As for the media, it's the Internet, blogs and places like DiscoWeb that have them upset. Why? Because they have lost influence and control. They are less important. This is the real battle for 2004.

James - The Swift Boat Vets have a bone to pick with Kerry. This is between them and Kerry and not President Bush. I somewhat agree that what Kerry did in Vietnam is his own issue. I say somewhat because if Kerry was on my boat and didn't pull his weight he'd be gone. This probably explains why he spent on 4 months on the front lines, the shortest tour of all SBV's. Keep in mind that his medals are highly suspect.

But let's move on to after he left Vietnam while we were still at war. He was still serving out his time, still in the service, either active or in-active and assigned. Now remember Kerry was an officer. He became a major player in the anti-war movement, traveled to Paris, met with the enemy, plotted to assassinate member of congress and most importantly lied before Congress about what happened in Vietnam slandering those who fought the war. This is against the Uniform Code and is probably treason. What needs to be understood is that there are two fronts to every war, the military and the psychology of those at home. If you don't have the support of those at home it is really difficult to win a war.

What most people don't know is that the after the Tet Offensive the North Vietnamese were beat. We had won the war, the troops had thought they won but the media portrayed it as a communist victory. But psychology changed at home, the North Vietnamese knew this, used Kerry's testimony against US prisoners, and extended the war resulting in more casualties. Kerry's reward? His picture hangs on the wall in Ho Chi Ming city.

Kerry's activites while still in the service is the reason he has not signed his 180. Officer Kerry was involuntary separated from the military. This is why he had to go before a review board to change his discharge from Dishonorable to Honorable. Who would sign something like this - President Carter. When a dishonorable discharge is issued, all pay benefits, and allowances, and all medals and honors are revoked as well. Five months after Mr. Kerry joined the U.S. Senate in 1985, on one single day, June 4, all of Mr. Kerry's medals were reissued.

How would you like it if you were sitting in a Vietnamese prison and they used Kerry's testimony as psychological warfare on you? Think you might have a bone to pick with a certain individual? Do you think this will end on November 2nd? Even if Kerry is elected President? Not!

As for the Vietnam war many link it to the Korean war as WWIII. Patton didn't want to stop marching east until Moscow. He saw the future. The current war on terror? - WWIV. History will be rewritten someday with a different perpective on the events of the last century.
 

Eric N.

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
3,980
0
Falls Church, VA
"But saying grad students are on the same level as a welfare recipant is bull shit."

I have to agree with that.. At least you are doing something that is productive and helps people.. I don't agree with every thing that our pres is doing but, I looked at the overall pros and cons of both of them and I have to stick with Bush.

And just like several hundred thousand other people in my area I was laid off from my job too so it's not like I haven't been there. As a matter of fact I'm still not working but, that is by my own choice and no I'm not getting an money from the gov or any handouts.. I have a great job it just doesn't pay me any money.... I'm just Dad to my little 18 month old girl and that's good enough for me..
 

utahdog2003

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
1,842
0
North Florida
MarkP said:
Steve - good summary of Clinton vs. Bush. The mainstream media is upset because Bush upset the status quo. I suspect that if you "follow the money" you will find who is upset, like France. As for the media, it's the Internet, blogs and places like DiscoWeb that have them upset. Why? Because they have lost influence and control. They are less important. This is the real battle for 2004.

James - The Swift Boat Vets have a bone to pick with Kerry. This is between them and Kerry and not President Bush. I somewhat agree that what Kerry did in Vietnam is his own issue. I say somewhat because if Kerry was on my boat and didn't pull his weight he'd be gone. This probably explains why he spent on 4 months on the front lines, the shortest tour of all SBV's. Keep in mind that his medals are highly suspect.

But let's move on to after he left Vietnam while we were still at war. He was still serving out his time, still in the service, either active or in-active and assigned. Now remember Kerry was an officer. He became a major player in the anti-war movement, traveled to Paris, met with the enemy, plotted to assassinate member of congress and most importantly lied before Congress about what happened in Vietnam slandering those who fought the war. This is against the Uniform Code and is probably treason. What needs to be understood is that there are two fronts to every war, the military and the psychology of those at home. If you don't have the support of those at home it is really difficult to win a war.

What most people don't know is that the after the Tet Offensive the North Vietnamese were beat. We had won the war, the troops had thought they won but the media portrayed it as a communist victory. But psychology changed at home, the North Vietnamese knew this, used Kerry's testimony against US prisoners, and extended the war resulting in more casualties. Kerry's reward? His picture hangs on the wall in Ho Chi Ming city.

Kerry's activites while still in the service is the reason he has not signed his 180. Officer Kerry was involuntary separated from the military. This is why he had to go before a review board to change his discharge from Dishonorable to Honorable. Who would sign something like this - President Carter. When a dishonorable discharge is issued, all pay benefits, and allowances, and all medals and honors are revoked as well. Five months after Mr. Kerry joined the U.S. Senate in 1985, on one single day, June 4, all of Mr. Kerry's medals were reissued.

How would you like it if you were sitting in a Vietnamese prison and they used Kerry's testimony as psychological warfare on you? Think you might have a bone to pick with a certain individual? Do you think this will end on November 2nd? Even if Kerry is elected President? Not!

As for the Vietnam war many link it to the Korean war as WWIII. Patton didn't want to stop marching east until Moscow. He saw the future. The current war on terror? - WWIV. History will be rewritten someday with a different perpective on the events of the last century.

you are insane

Eric is just wrong, but you are insane ;)
 

Eric N.

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
3,980
0
Falls Church, VA
Well utahdog2003 that's what makes this country great.. You have your opinion and I have mine whether we agree or not we are both entitled to them..

However, the facts are there for the reading it's not biased by any media group or anything else. Just the straight facts as they are recorded by the senate. Lots of political agendas I'm sure but, then that is the name of the game. You'll have to get your own manuscripts of his speeches and rallys though...
 

Blue

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2004
10,070
881
AZ
I just want to live in the Utopia Kerry has promised me. That would be awesome. I won't have to work hard anymore and free shit will just roll my way. It's going to be an awesome new world.

In all seriousness, the Kerry ticket's promises promises promises reached a new high (or low) the other day:

An Edwards Outrage

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, October 15, 2004; Page A23
Washington Post

After the second presidential debate, in which John Kerry used the word "plan" 24 times, I said on television that Kerry has a plan for everything except curing psoriasis. I should have known there is no parodying Kerry's pandering. It turned out days later that the Kerry campaign has a plan -- nay, a promise -- to cure paralysis. What is the plan? Vote for Kerry.

This is John Edwards on Monday at a rally in Newton, Iowa: "If we do the work that we can do in this country, the work that we will do when John Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeve are going to walk, get up out of that wheelchair and walk again."

In my 25 years in Washington, I have never seen a more loathsome display of demagoguery. Hope is good. False hope is bad. Deliberately, for personal gain, raising false hope in the catastrophically afflicted is despicable.

Where does one begin to deconstruct this outrage?

First, the inability of the human spinal cord to regenerate is one of the great mysteries of biology. The answer is not remotely around the corner. It could take a generation to unravel. To imply, as Edwards did, that it is imminent if only you elect the right politicians is scandalous.

Second, if the cure for spinal cord injury comes, we have no idea where it will come from. There are many lines of inquiry. Stem cell research is just one of many possibilities, and a very speculative one at that. For 30 years I have heard promises of miracle cures for paralysis (including my own, suffered as a medical student). The last fad, fetal tissue transplants, was thought to be a sure thing. Nothing came of it.

As a doctor by training, I've known better than to believe the hype -- and have tried in my own counseling of people with new spinal cord injuries to place the possibility of cure in abeyance. I advise instead to concentrate on making a life (and a very good life it can be) with the hand one is dealt. The greatest enemies of this advice have been the snake-oil salesmen promising a miracle around the corner. I never expected a candidate for vice president to be one of them.

Third, the implication that Christopher Reeve was prevented from getting out of his wheelchair by the Bush stem cell policies is a travesty.

George Bush is the first president to approve federal funding for stem cell research. There are 22 lines of stem cells now available, up from one just two years ago. As Leon Kass, head of the President's Council on Bioethics, has written, there are 3,500 shipments of stem cells waiting for anybody who wants them.

Edwards and Kerry constantly talk of a Bush "ban" on stem cell research. This is false. There is no ban. You want to study stem cells? You get them from the companies that have the cells and apply to the National Institutes of Health for the federal funding.

In his Aug. 7 radio address to the nation, Kerry referred not once but four times to the "ban" on stem cell research instituted by Bush. At the time, Reeve was alive, so not available for posthumous exploitation. But Ronald Reagan was available, having recently died of Alzheimer's.

So what does Kerry do? He begins his radio address with the disgraceful claim that the stem cell "ban" is standing in the way of an Alzheimer's cure.

This is an outright lie. The President's Council on Bioethics, on which I sit, had one of the world's foremost experts on Alzheimer's, Dennis Selkoe from Harvard, give us a lecture on the newest and most promising approaches to solving the Alzheimer's mystery. Selkoe reported remarkable progress in using biochemicals to clear the "plaque" deposits in the brain that lead to Alzheimer's. He ended his presentation without the phrase "stem cells" having passed his lips.

So much for the miracle cure. Ronald D.G. McKay, a stem cell researcher at NIH, has admitted publicly that stem cells as an Alzheimer's cure are a fiction, but that "people need a fairy tale." Kerry and Edwards certainly do. They are shamelessly exploiting this fairy tale, having no doubt been told by their pollsters that stem cells play well politically for them.

Politicians have long promised a chicken in every pot. It is part of the game. It is one thing to promise ethanol subsidies here, dairy price controls there. But to exploit the desperate hopes of desperate people with the promise of Christ-like cures is beyond the pale.

There is no apologizing for Edwards's remark. It is too revealing. There is absolutely nothing the man will not say to get elected.
 
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curtis

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
1,545
0
Salt Lake City, UT
utahdog2003 said:
you are insane

Eric is just wrong, but you are insane ;)

Now that is always a good argument. When someone details a statement, just call them nuts. Kinda reminds me of running out of ammo with a revolver and continuing to pull the trigger 'click-click-click' ;)

Seriously, I think I wheeled with Mark & his lovely wife Bev back at a Burke event in Moab a few years back. There was this one line he took on Metal Masher that was a little wacky, but all-in-all he seemed pretty sane to me.

I also think his synopsis of the SBV vs. Kerry is pretty accurate. They had this on Nightline last night while questioning Kerrys Silver Star. The way they portrayed it made me direspect Nightline. Not because it was pro-Kerry, but because they brought the author in to argue one point and they argued another.

I dislike Kerry, but it is not becasue of his service record. I just think he is a puppet that has proven he will say whatever will get him a vote. THAT is insane...
 
C

cmondieyoung

Guest
curtis said:
I just think he is a puppet that has proven he will say whatever will get him a vote. THAT is insane...

'click-click-click'