Grrr...Murphy's Law - Throttle Heater Plate
- Thread starter lagunarich
- Start date
ptschram
Well-known member
In the 71K miles we have owned our '03 Disco the TB heater plate has failed (leaked) 2 times. First at ~35K miles and second at 65K miles. The final fix was to completely bypass the plate and replace all those crappy hard plastic lines with quality rubber hose. I actually purchased the rebuild kit (new TB heater plate + gasket and screws) but once I had it all off decided it looked too error prone and just cleaned everything up and left it off.
I live in SoCal so I feel safe with the bypass. That said what exactly does the TB heater do that just properly warming the engine (during winter months) prior to driving away won't do?
I live in SoCal so I feel safe with the bypass. That said what exactly does the TB heater do that just properly warming the engine (during winter months) prior to driving away won't do?
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the air,
moving thru the intake,
(due to venturi effect, and the factors below)
and vaccum pressure changes,
esp when outside air temps are freezing,
can increase the drop in temperature,
at the TB,
relative to the cold most air we have here in snohomish,
north of seattle,
esp in the mtns,
where its cold and wet year round,
and more so in the winter,
where shady folk like me lurk,
the throttle plate can freeze stuck,
from moisture,
and that can present an unsafe situation
...the heater prevents this icing
when its freeezing outside,
water vapors from the crank travel upwards,
as the oil heats and there is moisture/condensate that can freeze,
and then you can crash,
and thats not good for your rover
or you
I suggest you fix it not bypass it, make it safe for anyone who drives that rig anywhere, should hell freeze over ya know?
likely in sunny southern cali u wont miss this feature's function much
moving thru the intake,
(due to venturi effect, and the factors below)
and vaccum pressure changes,
esp when outside air temps are freezing,
can increase the drop in temperature,
at the TB,
relative to the cold most air we have here in snohomish,
north of seattle,
esp in the mtns,
where its cold and wet year round,
and more so in the winter,
where shady folk like me lurk,
the throttle plate can freeze stuck,
from moisture,
and that can present an unsafe situation
...the heater prevents this icing
when its freeezing outside,
water vapors from the crank travel upwards,
as the oil heats and there is moisture/condensate that can freeze,
and then you can crash,
and thats not good for your rover
or you
I suggest you fix it not bypass it, make it safe for anyone who drives that rig anywhere, should hell freeze over ya know?
likely in sunny southern cali u wont miss this feature's function much
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My new one lasted 7 months before it started to leak. Probably because I didn't file down the throttle body.
I'm in the same situation as the poster. Don't really want to buy the kit again for a 79cent gasket. Plus my gasket making skills are worthless.
The gasket looks almost identical to the TB gasket on most BMW E30 325. That gasket is only 79cents brand new. I had to order some parts for a customer today and ordered that gasket as well. I'll post up in a few days if it will work.
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=v0dcmw45csozxv31vrtmgs45&partnumber=13%2054%201%20285%20471
Edit. These guys sell the kit for $14.55 thats $6 cheaper
I'm in the same situation as the poster. Don't really want to buy the kit again for a 79cent gasket. Plus my gasket making skills are worthless.
The gasket looks almost identical to the TB gasket on most BMW E30 325. That gasket is only 79cents brand new. I had to order some parts for a customer today and ordered that gasket as well. I'll post up in a few days if it will work.
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=v0dcmw45csozxv31vrtmgs45&partnumber=13%2054%201%20285%20471
Edit. These guys sell the kit for $14.55 thats $6 cheaper
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I had the same thing fixed at a repair shop last month. $280. Also a 2003 DII. I was on the way to work when it went bad, that was my last day at work before a 1,000+ mile drive on vacation. Someone from the repair shop drove over to the LR dealer to get the gasket. I have used that shop before with my MGB/GT and I trust them. While I don't enjoy paying $280, the peace of mind that it was done right during vacation was worth it.
The throttle body is cast metal and sits on top of the motor so by proximity it gets plenty warm to avoid icing...yes? This entire TB heater design looks like an after thought - as if LR lawyers are trying to avoid a rare circumstance like a rogue floor mat manufactured by Lexus...
I bypassed the TB heater cause it's a definite weak link in the cooling system - as are the hard plastic coolant lines that snap if you just look at them wrong. Our Disco never see's snow/ice but even if we moved to such a climate I don't see how with proper warming of engine before selecting 'D' this would ever be a problem...unless you live in MN or similar with really harsh (way below zero) conditions then by all means yes take the proper precautions.
YMMV.
I bypassed the TB heater cause it's a definite weak link in the cooling system - as are the hard plastic coolant lines that snap if you just look at them wrong. Our Disco never see's snow/ice but even if we moved to such a climate I don't see how with proper warming of engine before selecting 'D' this would ever be a problem...unless you live in MN or similar with really harsh (way below zero) conditions then by all means yes take the proper precautions.
YMMV.
gmookher said:
ptschram said:
Alright, you scared me into getting the right parts, but, mmmmm...milkshakes. LOL
Woulda bought 'em off you but you hurt my feelings. :smilelol: Nah, dealer had it in next day for similar price. plate, gasket, screws, sticker. Thanks for the push, I'm drinking the water mofo!ptschram said:
Now, onto the write-up... turn by turn wrench description? anyone? bueller?
-R
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Tools needed-5mm or 7/32 socket, couple extensions, pliers, beer. Time - 15 min to rip it off for good another 10 min to plug the coolant lines (use 1 of those rusty bolts laying on the drive under many Disco's). How to do right? ... probably a couple hundred hours ... may require removal of engine and rotation of air in the tires. Seriously, pull off the air intake at the tb, the 2 coolant lines, remove the plate (its under the tb). Reverse for install.
GoodJava said:
Wrong...without the heater the throttle body freezes up and can leave you standing on the brakes trying to slow down.
bypassing the heater is a poor idea and a hack repair that may get someone killed.
Can you explain this further? At what outside temperature will the TB freeze up when the engine is at operating temperature?MUSKYMAN said:
look up the venturi effect. The pressure is lower around the throttle plate because the air is moving faster. This pressure drop causes the air to cool. If the air is humid, it can precipitate the water and it can freeze. This can cause the throttle to stick causing a runaway vehicle.
lagunarich said:
Would be good to know this also since I need to do - I know people explain how to do it but as PT says there is a wrong and right way to do it and have it last - at least for longer than months -
Do you need to file down the plate or mating surface? Do you need to remove the TB to do correctly? Do you need gasket material to help seal? Do you need the TB gasket as well? Is the kit that is offered out there all you need?
ptschram
Well-known member
1: disconnect battery (doesn't everything start with disconnecting the battery?)
2: Rotate the throttle/cruise cables so they can be slipped free.
3: 6 m/m nut driver or socket to loosen air intake tube, small screwdriver to snap IAC hose clamp free, gently remove IAC hose from intake tube, pull intake tube from intake.
4: loosen clamps holding hoses to throttle body.
5: Remove four screws holding throttle body to intake plenum.
6: turn throttle body over to expose deicer. Remove three tiny screws, plate and gasket.
7: While holding the throttle body steady, draw a fine tooth file across the mating surface of the throttle body where the plenum deicer was before we removed it. The first path will usually reveal any imperfections. Continue gently draw-filing this surface until it is true, evidenced by a smooth cut all the way across the face. Clean with brake cleaner or similar, allow to dry. Reassemble opposite of disassembly.
2: Rotate the throttle/cruise cables so they can be slipped free.
3: 6 m/m nut driver or socket to loosen air intake tube, small screwdriver to snap IAC hose clamp free, gently remove IAC hose from intake tube, pull intake tube from intake.
4: loosen clamps holding hoses to throttle body.
5: Remove four screws holding throttle body to intake plenum.
6: turn throttle body over to expose deicer. Remove three tiny screws, plate and gasket.
7: While holding the throttle body steady, draw a fine tooth file across the mating surface of the throttle body where the plenum deicer was before we removed it. The first path will usually reveal any imperfections. Continue gently draw-filing this surface until it is true, evidenced by a smooth cut all the way across the face. Clean with brake cleaner or similar, allow to dry. Reassemble opposite of disassembly.
It's happened to me a few times here in VA before I got the kit and fixed it right.GoodJava said:
Temp was in the low to mid twenties.
From Dweb 2006 ... Not my post ... The TB heater is only there to keep the TB from icing up in certain ambeint conditions. If it's cold and moist the air rushing thru the TB can be "super cooled" and cause the moisture freeze out, attaching to the TB and causing a "no run" situation. These conditions are actually pretty rare, in all my years I've have only one occurrence of a freeze up( on a Iszuzu p/u truck up in allegheny mtn's in the dead of winter 30 odd years ago.) If in fact you never see frezing temps. (and don't ever plan too) An engine runs more eff. w/o the TB heater, as cooler denser air is easier to make power with.
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/images/students/presolo/9901IcingChart_lg.jpg
Check this chart if your curious about temp ranges for actual icing.
Most people think icing to occur during cold temperatures only, False. You are more suseptible to icing temps between 25 and 70 degrees F when the relative humidity is above 50%.
The venturi effect that is being mentioned is only there to speed up the air and to assist with vaporization of fuel.
Does this by essentially narrowing the path causing the air to speed up to move through creating a low pressure on the venturi side (Resulting in temperature drop).
Most important reason for the temperature drop is the atomization and evaporation of the fuel.
NOW IF YOUR STILL READING
I'am confused myself however why carb icing would be much of a problem in this engine. For one it is fuel injected so you dont have the cooling effect of the vaporization. I get a lot of carb ice in the bush planes I fly up here in Alaska because of summertime humidity combined with average temps in summer 50 - 85 Deg F. Never had a throttle valve freeze into a certain position which some are claiming will happen, but the engines do start to run exremely rough and can completely quit if no action is taken.
I'm sure there is a reason for it on this vehicle otherwise LR would not have invested manufacturing and research into adding the accessory to the engine.
But I do not think it is as severe as some are making it....... I would think you would encounter some engine roughness as the airflow begins to be restriced from the ice. IMO
"OMG, ITS COMING RIGHT FOR US THAT DISCO IS DOING 134MPH DOWN THE ROAD"
"Yeppers, another iced up throttle body...... I see it ALL the time!"
Check this chart if your curious about temp ranges for actual icing.
Most people think icing to occur during cold temperatures only, False. You are more suseptible to icing temps between 25 and 70 degrees F when the relative humidity is above 50%.
The venturi effect that is being mentioned is only there to speed up the air and to assist with vaporization of fuel.
Does this by essentially narrowing the path causing the air to speed up to move through creating a low pressure on the venturi side (Resulting in temperature drop).
Most important reason for the temperature drop is the atomization and evaporation of the fuel.
NOW IF YOUR STILL READING
I'am confused myself however why carb icing would be much of a problem in this engine. For one it is fuel injected so you dont have the cooling effect of the vaporization. I get a lot of carb ice in the bush planes I fly up here in Alaska because of summertime humidity combined with average temps in summer 50 - 85 Deg F. Never had a throttle valve freeze into a certain position which some are claiming will happen, but the engines do start to run exremely rough and can completely quit if no action is taken.
I'm sure there is a reason for it on this vehicle otherwise LR would not have invested manufacturing and research into adding the accessory to the engine.
But I do not think it is as severe as some are making it....... I would think you would encounter some engine roughness as the airflow begins to be restriced from the ice. IMO
"OMG, ITS COMING RIGHT FOR US THAT DISCO IS DOING 134MPH DOWN THE ROAD"
"Yeppers, another iced up throttle body...... I see it ALL the time!"
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MojaveMike45 said:
This is fine and good and I could really care less that this guy has only seen one.
I had bypassed the heater on my DII and my wife nearly drove through the garage door driving up our driveway.
The things freeze up without the heater so bypassing it is just a stupid move that is only going to save you $15 and about 20 min of time so why do it?