INEOS Grenadier

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
169
North Carolina
How much money are they pouring into that thing?

If those frame and axle renders are coming from their own designs, that's far beyond what I'd have expected; and so are the axles, which I'd have assumed would just be custom Dana 60/Salisbury units. Strange choice when you can pick up the phone and get any axle you like tailored for your platform.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
169
North Carolina
They are pouring GBP 600 million into it. Possibly more.

Well, they seem to be getting away with murder, here, and I'm not sure how they're pulling it off...

...unless Land Rover was in on it from the start.

A car built with common, standardized parts I could see slipping by under some exemption, but a production quality vehicle? That's not just off the rack tubing; that's a custom stamped frame in the imagery, and they've hired a heavy equipment gear manufacturer for the axles instead of just "buying something". That's serious shit; ridiculously expensive shit that will make it a very high-profile release.

It's clearly riding the Defender's coat-tails, and I don't see Land Rover just letting something that big slide when they've just invested in a replacement that hasn't even hit the market yet.

I'm not getting how it's possible without Land Rover being on board. They are very heavy-handed when it comes to IP, and the Defender is about as iconic as it gets.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
169
North Carolina
JLR already tried to sue either Jim Ratchcliffe or Ineos and lost.
Yeah, but there's more going on than what was originally the issue.

Nearly every section of their site is showing Land Rovers in one way or another. They aren't just copying a design, here... They're using Land Rover's image to promote a vehicle that is indicated to be a modern interpretation of a Land Rover product. That peppers every page on the site, the press releases; everything.

So, they won the right to build a box. That doesn't remove the threat of lawsuits. This company is clearly trampling on another brand; a brand that's in the middle of a resurrection. It's about the most blatant rip-off I've ever seen. Land Rover still has a case, unless they managed a profit sharing deal or piggybacking military contracts; which were a big part of their business that's now gone.

Cheers,

Kennith
 
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SCSL

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2005
4,124
140
I hope Land Rover loses time and time again, and that Ineos is highly successful. Screw LR for abandoning their heritage. Kudos to Ineos for trying to keep it around.
This. You beat me to it.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
169
North Carolina
I hope Land Rover loses time and time again, and that Ineos is highly successful. Screw LR for abandoning their heritage. Kudos to Ineos for trying to keep it around.

This. You beat me to it.
It's important they keep their noses clean.

They can be the nicest guys in the world with all the best intentions, but if they push too many limits someone will take those toys away, and then nobody will try this again in our lifetimes. Bam. There goes the only chance you'll ever have to buy a new Defender equivalent.

I think they're after fleet or military contracts, and I think Land Rover has a stake in that revenue somehow. If not, though, they're courting disaster.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

fishEH

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2009
6,877
170
Lake Villa, IL
It's important they keep their noses clean.

They can be the nicest guys in the world with all the best intentions, but if they push too many limits someone will take those toys away, and then nobody will try this again in our lifetimes. Bam. There goes the only chance you'll ever have to buy a new Defender equivalent.

I think they're after fleet or military contracts, and I think Land Rover has a stake in that revenue somehow. If not, though, they're courting disaster.

Cheers,

Kennith
It wouldn't surprise me if Land Rover sold off, or leased, the rights to the classic Defender. Its clear the current managment wants to distance the brand as far from the icon as possible.
 
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kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
169
North Carolina
It wouldn't surprise me if Land Rover sold off, or leased, the rights to the classic Defender. Its clear the current managment wants to distance the brand as far from the icon as possible.
...and yet they just might love it as much as the community does.

If so, this could be their way to keep it alive in some form or another; to allow a "modern" proper Defender to exist. It does provide a benefit to them. If they wanted direct association, co-branding would work; but there's also letting someone else go through all the headache of making this happen, and then just buying the company, or at least quite a bit of interest in it.

They tried to crack down early, it didn't work, and then they jumped in on the deal or decided letting it happen was the best marketing move.

I think that's what's going on. Either that, or they're going to get a piece of the contract action.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

DiscoHasBeen

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2016
554
115
Indy
It wouldn't surprise me if Land Rover sold off, or leased, the rights to the classic Defender. Its clear the current managment wants to distance the brand as far from the icon as possible.
If you are interested in how the new Defender came to be read this.



So I don’t get people coming up to me saying, “Oh, could you make it more retrospective?” I don’t get marketing coming up to me saying, could you do this, could you do that. Because, quite frankly, I don’t take any notice of them. I’m employed as a professional. Design is a separate issue for the brand; I’m the spiritual leader for the brand. I define what that vision is, and my team executes it. It might sound very arrogant…which it is.

[WSC laughs]

That’s not to say I’m not listening to other people, hearing their views and talking about how we get the right balance — from the manufacturing perspective, the engineering perspective and the marketing perspective. But when it comes to the design, when it comes to any of the disciplines where I’m an advocate…you have to respect each others’ disciplines. Don’t tell the designers how to design cars. I don’t tell the finance man how to do all those numbers, et cetera.
 
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Eliot

Well-known member
Feb 4, 2008
614
10
Bozeman, MT
It wouldn't surprise me if Land Rover sold off, or leased, the rights to the classic Defender. Its clear the current managment wants to distance the brand as far from the icon as possible.
They're very defensive about their new vehicle.

I assume it's not testing well.

That's why I think they'll never revive the classic Defender. They can hardly afford to suffer the comparison. The Defender is, was, cool. Their new vehicle, isn't. And it probably won't sell very well.

Reviving the Defender would also be an admission that they've made a mistake.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
169
North Carolina
If you are interested in how the new Defender came to be read this.



So I don’t get people coming up to me saying, “Oh, could you make it more retrospective?” I don’t get marketing coming up to me saying, could you do this, could you do that. Because, quite frankly, I don’t take any notice of them. I’m employed as a professional. Design is a separate issue for the brand; I’m the spiritual leader for the brand. I define what that vision is, and my team executes it. It might sound very arrogant…which it is.

[WSC laughs]

That’s not to say I’m not listening to other people, hearing their views and talking about how we get the right balance — from the manufacturing perspective, the engineering perspective and the marketing perspective. But when it comes to the design, when it comes to any of the disciplines where I’m an advocate…you have to respect each others’ disciplines. Don’t tell the designers how to design cars. I don’t tell the finance man how to do all those numbers, et cetera.
In some ways he's right, and in some ways he's VERY wrong.

He's had some odd quotes out there in regard to design, styling, and brand equity; and they don't always jive. He's responsible for one of my favorite concept cars, the Mercury Messanger; which had a very modern, almost architectural design language that seemed to lean on an area of streamlining and waterfalls to produce it's relatively cold shape. They sold that thing a while back, and I missed it.

You look at something like that, something Flash Gordon would drive, and wonder what the hell happened before he hit Land Rover.

Nothing. Nothing happened. You can't just make everything that clean and perfect; certainly not production cars that exist in the real world, covered in dirt and salt; and that's his fucking problem. Land Rover dealerships don't look real, at this point. He's got an entire stable of concept cars under their wing, so far as styling goes; and not a single one of them looks good dirty.

They don't look wrong dirty, but they just don't look good that way. The shapes and colors aren't right for it. He should have thought about tire spray, water lines, how snow would melt and where it would leave the road grime drips, whether a dent is hideous or something that adds character... You know, stuff designers think about.

The man's not a "designer". He's a stylist. His comments on style are subjective, but when he releases something like that Defender (almost textbook styling perfection, which is part of the problem), he can't honestly or intelligently call himself a designer. Any decent designer would have fixed that rear door, lowered the shoulders, and left the window squares on the drawing room floor.

He made a pretty sculpture that probably won a few awards. He isn't responsible for a brand-building holistic vehicle design, here.

They haven't managed to make that work yet, and because it's so damned perfect line for line, it's forgettable. I don't even remember the thing exists until I see these two threads pop back up.

I'd say the most "Land Rover" vehicle in their stable; the vehicle that's the most well-designed with the brand in it's eye is the Range Rover Sport.

Cheers,

Kennith
 
Last edited:

Blue

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2004
9,073
280
AZ
With that crack-head as LR’s “spiritual leader” I can tell you that I’m done with LR after my ‘04 Disco dies. Today I looked at 4-Runners for Christ’s sake!
 

bri

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
5,737
36
US
With that crack-head as LR’s “spiritual leader” I can tell you that I’m done with LR after my ‘04 Disco dies. Today I looked at 4-Runners for Christ’s sake!
Don't be a hater, LOL.

I am going to try to keep the Holland and Holland going unless someone wants to take it off my hands, it may go to the grave with me. I will gladly TRY to keep it going before I am caught in a Honda, Toyota or Jeep. I drove a sweet '16 RR LWB the other day, but it was quite a bit over what what I could get out of my existing 3 vehicles, so it was no go. Missed a '11 RR SC (not sport) in Rimini Red a few months back. Damn it! Sold in just a day or two.
 

Blue

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2004
9,073
280
AZ
I would love to have a Range Rover...a neighbor just picked up a full-size RR that’s about 5 or so model years old (maybe more) and it’s absolutely gorgeous. My wife said to just buy one but I just don’t want to deal with all the shitty electronics.