LR3 bashers...

[Ho]

steve, as long as we realized that a disco will never be a serious rock crawler.

john, LR3 is awesome. reality is, it'll be fine for most of the stuff we all do.
it's not like we use our discos to it's full capacity.

 

[njemoore]

I like my LR3 but got it stuck (pics)

I've been a long time lurker and a long time 4-wheeler, although I have limited experience with LR's. My family in NZ has a Series IIA which I learned to drive on as a kid. I've owned a '76 Landcruiser FJ40, a '79 V8 CJ7, a '93 Wrangler, a '93 Bronco full size, a '99 Jeep Grand Cherokee, and currently own a '00 4.6 RR and now an '05 LR3. I did a lot of off-roading with the landcruiser, CJ7, wrangler, and Bronco, but only limited off road with the GC and RR.

The on road capabilities of the LR3 put all the others to shame, even the 99 Jeep. I got the locking rear diff on the LR3 and have the dreaded 19 inch wrangler HP's. After buying a recovery shackle for the tow hitch, my brother and I went to find some trails in northern VT. We saw a washed out class 4 road, so I went to turn around on the verge of the highway. It was pretty muddy and right next to a creek bed. Anyway, the terrain response was in normal mode and when I slowed down in the mud, I wasn't able to get speed back up again. It seemed like I had no power - probably a function of the DSC. By the time I'd switched to mud-ruts mode and lifted the suspension, I was pretty well bogged down. A bit of forward-reverse action, and I was really buried. Then, the car tells me "obstruction detected, raising suspension to extended mode." It did lift the frame off the mud, at least briefly.

Since I was on the edge of the highway and this is rural Vermont, I had no trouble getting someone to pull over. The first vehicle was a GMC Jimmy and even on pavement, it couldn't pull me out (with a kinetic recovery rope, even). The next truck was a full-size Chevy truck. After several attempts which left a LOT of rubber on the highway, he finally got us loose. Once out of the deep holes, the LR3 was fine in mud and ruts mode, easily spinning tires when I needed it to.

Although I was really embarrassed to get stuck in a $55K truck, it sure taught me a real lesson about the terrain response system. You absolutely have to have the right mode engaged, or you can get in trouble really quickly. It seemed quite capable once the correct mode was engaged, and I trust that with better tires this may be the most capable 4x4 I've owned. I'm sure I'll get flamed, especially once I post these pics, but I thought you guys would get a good chuckle out of them.

Anyway, thanks to all of you for a great Land Rover resource. I hope that discoweb will open up to the LR3 (it is a Discovery by name at least). I remember when the Discovery first came out and it was received with a lot of suspicion by earlier model Land Rover owners - much like the LR3 today. Enjoy the pics and note the highway in the background. By the way, I nearly scratched all the finish off my wheels, but the truck is a week old now, so it was about due for some damage.

 

[MarkP]

Nick - nice mud!
Ho - I agree. The LR3 wil be fine for most of the stuff we all do.

But - here's where I wish Land Rover would have taken a different tack. The truck is a technology beast with computers, IFS/IRS, air suspension and automatic systems. If I'm going to spend $55K on a vehicle my plans would be to keep it for a long time. I don't have $55K to drop on a vehicle every 4-5 years or plan on trading into forever payments. Depreciation should put these vehicles in the $30's within a year, $20's in two. With a factory warranty of 50,000 miles the only sane option is extended warranties forever. More cost. Fixing these systems will be very costly. Removing them is not as simple as a RRC. While I realize a LR cost more than your typical SUV it feels like they moved the whole life cycle cost structure to a design point I don't like. I like working on my own vehicle and keeping my maintenance cost under control. A person really needs to be supplied with a PC based Testbook when taking delivery of the vehicle. Without it your locked into dealer maintenance/repair cost, probably by design. I'm beginning to not like LR being part of the Premier Auto Group - Jaguar and Volvo. A little too much group think is happening at PAG with LR becoming a sport car SUV.

 

[jsonova99]

Nick - nice mud!
Ho - I agree. The LR3 wil be fine for most of the stuff we all do.

But - here's where I wish Land Rover would have taken a different tack. The truck is a technology beast with computers, IFS/IRS, air suspension and automatic systems. If I'm going to spend $55K on a vehicle my plans would be to keep it for a long time. I don't have $55K to drop on a vehicle every 4-5 years or plan on trading into forever payments. Depreciation should put these vehicles in the $30's within a year, $20's in two. With a factory warranty of 50,000 miles the only sane option is extended warranties forever. More cost. Fixing these systems will be very costly. Removing them is not as simple as a RRC. While I realize a LR cost more than your typical SUV it feels like they moved the whole life cycle cost structure to a design point I don't like. I like working on my own vehicle and keeping my maintenance cost under control. A person really needs to be supplied with a PC based Testbook when taking delivery of the vehicle. Without it your locked into dealer maintenance/repair cost, probably by design. I'm beginning to not like LR being part of the Premier Auto Group - Jaguar and Volvo. A little too much group think is happening at PAG with LR becoming a sport car SUV.

I agree with you totally, unfortunately people like us are an EXTREME minority, and insignificant to the marketing departments of many (if not all anymore) automakers. The less you can do to a car yourself, the more money they can make off of you.

 

[njemoore]

Extreme minority sells their vehicles

I agree that owners who take ANY vehicle off road are a minority, and those who take $35-$75K LR's off road are an EXTREME minority. We are the ones who help LR perpetuate an image of freedom and adventure. That sells vehicles. I, for one, am glad that LR makes a locking rear diff an option on the LR3. Will it be a total waste of engineering for 90% of owners, never engaging during the life of the vehicle? Probably. But for the rest of us (10%?), it means that they will continue to build vehicles with at least some inherent off-road ability - so that a few of us will use them to their potential and they will be able to sell the adventure aspect of their vehicles.

 

[Dan Ratcliffe]

You absolutely have to have the right mode engaged, or you can get in trouble really quickly. It seemed quite capable once the correct mode was engaged, and I trust that with better tires this may be the most capable 4x4 I've owned.

YES!!!

As the manual states over and over, "systems can not make up for judgement and skill." Wait until you really start to manipulate the Terrain Response system, adusting HDC on the move, DSC on or off, etc.etc. I have spent a lot of time, 4-8 hours at a whack, driving the same obstacle over and over trying different settings to learn the vehicle. A friend of mine says it this way, "Learning this vehicle was a bitch, because I was in effect having to learn to drive five different cars. But once I learned it, I now have five different cars at my finger tips to choose from as I drive."

 

[noee]

Wait until you really start to manipulate the Terrain Response system, adusting HDC on the move, DSC on or off, etc.etc.

What do you do when it breaks? Seriously, what does the manual say about that? Is there a "limp home" mode or something like that?

 

[njemoore]

Limping home

What do you do when it breaks? Seriously, what does the manual say about that? Is there a "limp home" mode or something like that?

The manual has a list of notices that the computer can give you. Several of them are to do with HDC and DSC as well as terrain response. In practice I don't know what happens, but for each entry the manual suggests that the specific feature will be disabled, but the vehicle will continue to function without the aid of the failed component (i.e. antilock brake effect on spinning wheels would cease to function and throttle response would return to normal). Hopefully I won't have to find this out firsthand.

 

[Kyle]

LOL , this is good stuff....... YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT MODE ENGAGED !!!!

 

[MarkP]

A serious question - How many single point failures would result in the Terrain Response System being disabled?

I'll toss one out - ABS sensor?

 

[ducati]

I was the LR3 on the weekend trip Steve mentioned, this was my first foray with the beast offroad. Folks are saying the LR3/RR3 remove all the fun of offroading by making things easy... Not true. As the prior poster mentioned, you really need to work the system to get the best out of it. I used all the terrain settings except sand, the vehicle is RADICALLY different in each mode. Between the TR knob, HDC speed control through the cruise switches (finally HDC that actually WORKS), the articulation display for rocky sections, and using Command Shift, the LR3 demanded more active participation in offroad driving than my old Disco 2. Of course, I was on street tires... Which in retrospect was a great learning experience (with a few harrowing moments) as I really learned how to maximize the weak traction on different surfaces.

I was pretty pleased with it.

The suspension does appear to have more flex in the rear than the Disco II, not sure about the front. It gets so flexy in Rock Crawl mode that it's unreal. It just crawls all over rocky/muddy stuff with no drama or fuss. The lockers are great, and lock and unlock much faster than I thought they would. I only heard Traction Control come on 2 or 3 times over the weekend, which was very suprising considering all the mud. I did have to "play" the vehicle to make sure the lockers didn't engage on off camber muddy climbs, though--crabbing isn't fun.

The ground clearance was pretty good, I never had a problem with approach and I know departure is better than a Disco II on 245/75/16s. The lack of a low-hanging pumpkin is nice, too; I was able to walk over a large rock that the aforementioned Disco ground his diff on. However, the sills are lower than the Disco and I need sliders bigtime--I didn't touch them, but came close a few times. And he wasn't even close. I think there's a 4" difference from my pre-trip measurements. One climb on video was particularly close to big damage

All in all as Steve said I only had problems this weekend that were related to running on street tires (muddy climbs, off-camber muddy climbs, and a punctured sidewall on a rock). That and the size--it is a big vehicle so prepare yourself for many scratches on trails Freelanders and even Disco squeak right through. I would say that stock for stock this thing is a better offroader than my Disco 2 ('03 with no mods 245/75 ATs) by a fairly large margin--but I am not as comfortable offroading it yet. It is a WAY different vehicle, and although I loved the uber-flexy suspension, there's nothing better feel-wise (IMO) than 2 solid axles offroad. That display on the center of the dash that shows the articulation? You NEED it in this thing.

I'll have a full writeup of my offroad impressions including the good, bad, and ugly, as well as tips on driving the new systems, at another Rover-oriented site in the near future.

Bash away.

 

[Dan Ratcliffe]

The lockers are great, and lock and unlock much faster than I thought they would. I only heard Traction Control come on 2 or 3 times over the weekend, which was very suprising considering all the mud. I did have to "play" the vehicle to make sure the lockers didn't engage on off camber muddy climbs, though--crabbing isn't fun.

I would be willing to bet that if you keep your rpm's between 1250 and 1800 rpm's (I press my foot against the tunnel to ensure a steady throttle) and SLOWLY increase the throttle you will get incredible work out of the 4ETC. Most of the time the more 4ETC you hear on weak ground, the better traction and control you have. Kind of think about it this way. 20 odd years ago, I did a lot of climbing. Being a bit stubborn I didn't use aids or put in a lot of protection, had to be a "real" moutain climber. After too many falls and panic attacks, I started to rely a little more on my equipment. I had a hell of a lot more fun, and I was a good bit safer. Using all that this vehicle has to offer will help you make the most out of most terrain.

Automatic lockers are a concern, but they don't go from unlocked to locked. Depending on the mode selected, and I not going to list them all and all possible combinations, you can go from 50/50 to 10/90 in "unlocked." Couple that with throttle and left foot breaking and you have a winning combination. Again, prcatice and experimentation will really show you how to make this vehicle sing!

Dan

 

[Kyle]

Until an air bag goes psssssssssssssst... Or one of the other 19 thousand little thigns that fail decides to quit and then you really gotta do some thinking....

Dan , if your ropes had the same track record as the Land Rover air system you would have thrown them in the trash....

 

[Dan Ratcliffe]

Of course, that IS why they call it adventure.

 

[ducati]

Don't get me wrong--the electronic lockers were brilliant in use and I found traction to be incredible, especially considering the rain/snow/mud and the fact I was on stock tires. I was just pointing out one instance I didn't like the lockers on, and I decided to "trick" the conputer into running them open with a different TR setting.

I know LR advertises them as "progressive" lockers I'm just not sure when the red lock symbol is illuminated (50/50 only, or when only partially locked?). When I say "locked" I mean the red symbol was noticed. All I know is they were very active, always going from locked to unlocked. You don't need ETC when you're locked back there, and it's so much easier on the drivetrain when in rocks.

About the lockers. I like 'em. Alot. With mud tires and sliders this thing is fine for what I use it for. Learning it's intricacies will be a challenge. The real problem is obtaining both of the aforementioned items

 

[Dan Ratcliffe]

On more than one occaision I have found myself crabbing side with the rear end wanting to pass me by. Good luck with it.

 

[ducati]

Flipping to grass /gravel/ snow fixed that for me. I assume it doesn't set the preload as high in that mode.

 

[chillywater]

why didn't people talk crap about the range when the new body style came out? i mean its the same principal as the LR3, it came from a vehicle that always had solid axles but now has fully independent suspension....i'm not talking crap about the new range rover, i'm just saying that the LR3 isn't much different

 

[jsonova99]

why didn't people talk crap about the range when the new body style came out? i mean its the same principal as the LR3, it came from a vehicle that always had solid axles but now has fully independent suspension....i'm not talking crap about the new range rover, i'm just saying that the LR3 isn't much different

I think the Range Rover's off-road prowess began to die off with the P38, so the new one wasn't as huge of a step. Before I get 500 replies, I am not in any way saying the off-road ability was compromised on the P38, but to the average consumer, the P38 look fell more into a "high class show how much money you have" vehicle as opposed to a truly capable utility vehicle that just happened to be comfortable inside. Anyway, hopefully this makes sense. This is not in any way a shot at anybody or any trucks, I just want to make that clear.

 

[MarkP]

why didn't people talk crap about the range when the new body style came out? i mean its the same principal as the LR3, it came from a vehicle that always had solid axles but now has fully independent suspension....i'm not talking crap about the new range rover, i'm just saying that the LR3 isn't much different

But the situation is different. When the RR3 came out there was still the Discovery. After the RRC most wrote off the Range Rover as a serious trail rig. Look at the number of after market accessories for the RR2, not many. Now that the Discovery is being phased out with the LR3 as a replacement what's left? The Freelander? Sorry, too small. The LR3? Too expensive, long term cost too high due to too much technology and really more like a Range Rover vs. a Discovery.