LR3 bashers...

[syoung]

There are different levels and types of off-road driving and I think that's where the confusion lies. Is the LR3 an off-road capable vehicle? Absolutely. Is it a rock crawler? Nope, but neither is a Disco. Can Joe Blow fix anything on it with vice grips, duct tape and baling wire? Nope. The ability to fix it is not relevant to it's capability unless you are planning an unsupported expedition- which almost nobody does.

 

[Dan Ratcliffe]

You know, in 1996 I went to my first rally, MAR, at the orginal site. I arrived in a less than a month old completely stock Discovery. There were quite a few smirks and behind the hand comments about what a mall crawler it was and I should get a real land rover. From what I remember I was the first Discovery on the RTV course, only one if memory serves. I think there were a total of three there, four if you count the Camel Trophy Discovery that the American team brought down. (people kept trying to get them to admit it wasn't much of a Land Rover.) I knocked a rear bumper end cap loose, but other wise it did just fine. There are those that will tell you that RTV course makes the current one look like a green lane.

This too shall pass.

 

[dmarchand]

A hemi in a Wrangler would be a riot! The I-6 is supposedly being supplanted by the 3.7 V-6

Already done.

 

[jsonova99]

That sucks that they are going to officially ruin the Wrangler. Hopefully the Jeep faithful will rise up, like the Defender faithful should.

I'll do you one up on the hemi in a Wrangler

http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/features/1999/03/

 

[F18Guy]

http://info.detnews.com/autosinsider/sneakpeek/index.cfm

 

[jsonova99]

http://info.detnews.com/autosinsider/sneakpeek/index.cfm

I postee something about that once before. I saw a concept vehicle of it that had already been built, but it was on the current TJ style

 

[SCSL]

There are different levels and types of off-road driving and I think that's where the confusion lies. Is the LR3 an off-road capable vehicle? Absolutely. Is it a rock crawler? Nope, but neither is a Disco. Can Joe Blow fix anything on it with vice grips, duct tape and baling wire? Nope. The ability to fix it is not relevant to it's capability unless you are planning an unsupported expedition- which almost nobody does.

Steve, I don't disagree with your points. In my 1st post on this thread I said the LR3 was a good SUV. Is it off-road 'capable'? Sure it is. But it's not an off-road vehicle. It's an SUV with solid off-road capbability, but first & foremost a luxury SUV. My only point is that, to the extent we don't stress this difference, we send the mssg to LR that it's ok to not have a true off-roader in the line-up & hence,,, we don't get one. We can say LR3's not an off-road vehicle and still say it's a great SUV, the two are not mutally exclusive. To remain competitive & disctinct, LR will have to differentiate themselves from the pack by offering BOTH. This is like "off road" magazines giving 4x4 of the year awards to Lexus, etc. All this does is tell the executives that we agree with their direction and back up the myth that there is little customer base for a true off-road vehicle. I think we are on generally the same page here,,,I'm not "bashing" LR3. I'm just drawing a distinction between two "types" of vehicles.

On a seperate note, "ability to fix it not relevant to it's capability unless you are planning an unsupported expedition". Not sure if everyone would agree with you on this one. Axles, suspension components, etc break frequently on trails. Therefore, the closer to "standardization" or some form of compatibility your rig has with others (even with welding, "duct tape", etc) the better off you are when, inevitably, stuff breaks.

 

[MarkP]

Can Joe Blow fix anything on it with vice grips, duct tape and baling wire? Nope. The ability to fix it is not relevant to it's capability unless you are planning an unsupported expedition- which almost nobody does.

I'd argue the LR3 is nearing not-trail-fixable by the typical off roading crowd. That's us. Well most of us.

 

[syoung]

Dude- the problem is that YOUR definition of what an off road vehicle is has yet to be explained. You're pushing your definition as if you were nominated by Webster himself to define the term. A snowmobile is an off-road vehicle, as is a Heep Liberty or a Disco or an LR3. All of them have design features that are intended to make the vehicle operate on surfaces other than pavement.

 

[Disco_J]

^^^^ Thats what I'll be doin for Prom in a Rangie

 

[Disco_J]

woops, i was refering to the posts on page 3

 

[SCSL]

LOL. Your desire to argue this point confuses me. Steve, a "definition" of an off-road vehicle (or anything else for that matter) can be debated on a website ad infinitum. So instead of giving you "my definition", let the market speak: What types of rigs do you see on trails? What types of rigs do you NOT see? You see Jeeps, Defenders, Broncos, Series Rovers (respect to all you Series guys out there), Discos, Cherokees, 4-Runners, etc,, even the occasional Hummer. You do NOT see Lexuses (Lexi?), Navigators, Cayennes, Freelanders & LR3s. So what is it that differentiates the former from the latter? Does this mean you'll NEVER see an LR3 or Freelander off-road. Hell no it doesn't. But the vehicle was not designed to be a street-legal off-road vehicle the way, for example, a Defender or Jeep was.

My intent here was not to provoke controversy. On the contrary, it was (again) to salute the LR3 as a great SUV while stressing the need for, yes, a TRUE off-road vehicle in the LR line-up. How less controversial can that be?

 

[ducati]

So you think the Disco was designed to be a street legal offroad vehicle?

Hmmmn.

It's the same with any group of enthusiasts. The new vehicle is "soft" "too techy" and "not real" until it proves itself. Heck, I could be riding a bevelhead... But give me a testastretta anyday.

 

[SCSL]

So you think the Disco was designed to be a street legal offroad vehicle?

Yes. Absolutely. It's a standard production, street legal SUV that has proven itself time & time again in aggressive off-road situations. It's fairly simple to find aftermarket parts & mods. Like a Jeep, it's been engineered with an eye to off-road effectiveness more than luxury, though unlike a Jeep it offers both. A Disco II has superior axle travel in stock form vs. any other stock SUV. It's an off-roader and the market has accepted it as such based on the custom shops offering mods for it. I wouldn't want to take a stock Disco up Helldorado, but I've seen plenty on the trails, and plenty that have been modified for extreme wheeling. Is it perfect? Far from. But it's in a different class than the LR3 when it comes to off-road capabilities, design, and modification potential. Can LR3 handle a real 4WD trail? With the right driver, yes,, just like a Freelander. Is it a true off-road vehicle? No. Does that mean it's bad? No. Is that an insult to any LR3 or Freelander drivers? Not at all. So there you go,,,I've offered some defining characteristics & at least stayed consistent. Your opinion may differ. Let's start a poll.

Your second point true. LR "purists" complained about the Disco. Series OG's probably complained about Defender,,,, but that doesn't detract from my point about LR3. Nor,,, as I have repeatedly emphasized, does it mean LR3 is somehow bad or inferior. Far from it. It's,,,,just,,,,,not,,,,,a,,,,,true,,,,,off-road,,,,vehicle.

 

[syoung]

I knew I'd get an answer like that...

On the trails, I often see Freelanders- but that's another arguement altogether. You're arguement against the LR3 is without merit as you cannot distinguish between what make a vehicle an 'off-road' vehicle and what doesn't. It's all semantics anyway- I can make a VW Rabbit an off-road vehicle.
I'm calling poo-poo on your arguement. Have you SEEN what the LR3 has in it? Have you tried the terrain response stuff and adjustable HDC? None of those things would be necessary on a vehicle that doesn't leave the pavement. So yes, it was designed to be and IS an offroad vehicle.

 

[ducati]

Yes. Absolutely. It's a standard production, street legal SUV that has proven itself time & time again in aggressive off-road situations. Like a Jeep, it's been engineered with an eye to off-road effectiveness more than luxury

But you do know the Disco was designed for the mall run, right? It's laugable to think the Disco was engineered with an "eye to off-road effectiveness more than luxury." It was designed to expand the brand and be a cheaper alternative to the Range Rover, with good onroad comfort. The offroad heritage and capability came from the parts bin mentality (which worked out pretty well, eh?)

After all, there's a hook for your takeout Curry

You know, I really miss that Curry Hook... Damn designers didn't put it in the Disco 3.

 

[SCSL]

Best Land Rover for Home Defense

Actually, I DID distinguish between the two, and gave examples, pretty clearly. As for the Disco II being a move to expand the brand, this is true. Doesn't have any impact on my points. The two functions are not mutually exclusive. Expanding the brand (as I clearly stated in my 1st post on this thread) is a good thing. I can't remember saying that LR3 was incapable off-road or was not designed with any positive off-road features. But not sure how you could argue that LR3 was designed as an off-road vehicle or,,,that a Jeep or Defender or, yes!, Disco (despite the optional curry rack,,,) was not. I guess we'll have to disagree.

Let's argue about something more interesting,,,like home defense weapons,,,
How do you define a "home defense" weapon ??

 

[chillywater]

I like indie suspension... some of the rock buggies are moving to it now too because it works.

 

[Kyle]

"Have you SEEN what the LR3 has in it? Have you tried the terrain response stuff and adjustable HDC? None of those things would be necessary on a vehicle that doesn't leave the pavement"

I love this one that keeps popping up.. None of these would even be on something that was really going to pull duty in that arena and in fact just cipple it further with electronics. Steve , I dont doubt you see Tons of freelanders on the "Trails". Thats allllll relative..

What you consider a "Trail" I might consider a "Road". What I consider a trail , you aint taking that freeloader on , you cant even mod it enough to take it through consistently without leaving parts behind. The Disco however can do it over and over again. Everyone saying that the Disco wasnt accepted at first is kinda useless in this thread. The Disco came with the exact same driveline as his brothers that went before him . The truck could have been redisigned to drive better on road but they didnt do that. They sacraficed that so that the Disco would be just the same as the rest under the skin. This is not the case with the new line up and the sacrafices are made to the off road end of it so that its better on the road.
When the D2 came out I said it was a heap of shit with its ETC and no diff lock and people argued and argued.. I said it would break diffs and be a handicap and that it was useles without the CDL and look what happened..People had to mod the trucks just to get them back up to speed with the previous model years. Now the LR3 and the freeloader have taken it five steps further. Unibody ?lol IFS??? lol... it just goes on and on and on... I differ from our other posters opinion in that I dont agree that its good for anything. If I want a road truck there is much better out there to be had for the same money.

 

[noee]

Take a close look at the evolution of LR. Originally conceived, designed, engineered as utility vehicles with damn good off-road capability. These designs used mechanical "systems" to provide simple, effective performance, with a nod at on road comfort and drivability.

All engineering is a compromise of some sort. Over the years, as electronics and computers have entered the world of motor cars, it has become possible to use this techno-wizardry to perform some tasks that the mechanical systems of old once performed. THe compromise being, loss of simplicity, increase in complexity and sophistication. Take for example, the cross-linked air springs to simulate articulation or the ACE system on the D2. There are numerous examples.

So what once was a simple vehicle designed for offroad prowess, evolving with electro-wizardry controlling mechanical devices to offer enhanced onroad drivability, has become essentially the exact opposite. A vehicle designed primarily for on road performance and comfort, now using computers and electro-wizardry to provide off road capability and performance. Not a bad compromise, eh? Hats off to LR for making it happen, they are a really smart, capable car maker.

So some folks like the techo-wizardry a whole lot, some don't and we all prolly fall in along the spectrum but not firmly at either end. I can tell you, it's a warm and cozy feeling to have a Garmin GNS 430 or 530 showing you the way to next waypoint, but when that volage regulator pops, you're mighty glad for that chart and compass.