LR3 bashers...

[MarkP]

But financially I just don't see it happening... Ford is already in a precarious position.

NOW... We may all think they are idiots for not bringing the Defender... But sales were up 24% for April in an odd market. Ford knows what they are doing, and I doubt the Defender is part of it . Sales Figures

Precarious position - that's putting it mildly
S&P Junks GM, Ford

Ford is struggling and time will tell if they know what they are doing. Here's an interesing article on Ford and Wolfgang Reitzle, the man who put PAG together. http://www.automobilemag.com/columns/0207_americandriver/

In the meantime, Ford's director of design, J Mays, is appearing in living color in the Style section of the New York Times, telling us how he prowls emporia like Prada and Asprey & Garrard, looking for ideas. In the accompanying photo, Mays grins across the console of a Jaguar at the New York International Auto Show, looking for all the world like the Child Catcher in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. In the Times piece, Mays tells us, "Any time I can mix it up with fashion design, from broad picture, big-look issues, to creating better detailing on an automobile, to microscopic jewelry-like details, is ultimately going to help us." And further along, "Most gas gauges are crude looking. Why shouldn't all of that?the console, the panel?look like a Rolex?"

My first response would be that "fashion" is trash, and transient trash at that. "Style" is what we should be seeking in our clothes, our lives, and our automobiles. Style comes from inside us, fashion from outside. Not for nothing were the design sections of the automobile industry in their glory days called Styling Departments. I would continue along this path for a moment longer and suggest that if Mays wants to see how wristwatch graphics might translate to automotive instrument panels, he should go not to a jewelry store but to a Lexus dealership. The Lexus IS300 makes the point in quite handsome fashion. Mr. Mays seems to be reading from a script written before Jac Nasser was fired and Wolfgang Reitzle turned his attention to forklifts.

I wonder what the authors opinion of the LR3 would be?

 

[chillywater]

I like the LR3, but is it just me or doesn't that thing look like an expedition now?

 

[SCSL]

P-Diddy

And honestly, outside of the first year of halo sales (to those of us that have always wanted one) I don't think they would sell. Who is going to buy something like a D90 for $45k (just a guesstimate of pricing based upon last imported model) when you could buy a Jeep Rubicon for $25k? Well, some of us would, but not THAT many. In a put up or shut up world I guess there would be very few actual orders (say, under 500 from the offroad crowd). Maybe more... But >2000 or so? Naaah.

You bring up valid points but I don't agree with this one. Again, look at sales of, for example, H2. There clearly is a market out there (whether they actually go off-road or not) who wants a car with a unique character, that stands out, that looks tough, and that (at least looks like it in the case of H2) can handle itself off-road. The points you bring up about the Defender are valid but I think the assumption is that LR would make one that could pass US safety & emissions w/ minimal changes to styling, functionality, & relative simplicity. Again,,, throw P-Diddy into one at Grammys or Arnold in one at the Oscars, put together a good commercial,,, and these would sell. The Defender is a VERY appealing design, even to those who don't know anything about LR, wheelin', etc. Thoughts?

 

[syoung]

The H2 has a bunch of computers and creature comforts in it too- things that would drive the price up. If L.R. did up a Defender for the US market, it would have to have leather, climate control etc- or nobody would buy it. I can just hear 'em now- "$40,000 for a truck and it doesn't have heated leather and 11 cupholders?" and then off to buy a Tahoe.

Land Rover couldn't make something to meet US specs and keep the price in Rubicon territory.

 

[SCSL]

SYoung you are dead on. But my point is that people would buy it w/ all the interior trim & high price. Then,,,in a few yrs,,,we would have a used market in the U.S. In other words, there's a middle ground between high-tech variation-on-a-theme SUVs and something that's too old school to make money. But again,,,just one guy's (very biased opinion).

 

[syoung]

buy an 04 DII... That's what I did. I figured it would be awhile, maybe forever, before something else like it came out of the UK. I dig the LR3, but the next vehicle I spend that much on will have the letters AMG on the back of it.

 

[freeflytim]

Yeah, I had to add the FU, dickhead.
All I did was post pix and you call me a poser, yeah, you're a dickhead. FU.

"Dude.. You're a dickhead. FU"

How creative. You had to edit this later to add the FU ?

 

[q2w3e4]

Very interesting discussion, I own a D3 HSE. I had a D2 ES prior. The LR3/D3 is an amazing improvement on the D2 for, comfort , noise, economy, towing, boot space, 7 seats, sat nav etc etc it truly is in a different class.

Now off roading, well it can do everything ive ever tried to do or am likely to try and do. It is certainly as good if not better than my old stock disco. If I want to go really extreme I will buy a defender and add all the aftermarket goodies.

So if you dont like it dont buy it. The sales figures speak for themselves clearly ford have got it right. Its about profit not making a vehicle that appeals to the minority who want to go radical offroading.

SCSL, you make some really good valid points.

Kyle, grow up im assuming your not still at school, playtimes over.

 

[jsonova99]

I can't believe how heated this gets. They're freakin' trucks. I'd hate to see some of you at a little legue game if your kid didn't get enough at bats.

 

[noee]

I'll go out on a limb here and make a prediction. LR will not produce a defender for NAS market under the current executive team. I know there is all this talk in the auto-press and all you defender guys are all hot and bothered, but I think it's all just hype and what we call in the software industry "vapor-ware". Announcements of so-called "products" that are essentially "promises" made to create confusion or to manipulate markets and/or competitors.

I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but I just don't see how they could make the economics work for a vehicle that essentially will be competing with Jeep and Japanese models when they've taken the whole line up-market. Isn't the whole point of what LR is now doing to get away from competing in the same "X-terra" market space as Jeep and 4-runner?

THey may release a vehicle and call it a Defender, but like the LR3 is not really a Discovery, what comes will not really be a Defender.

 

[Blueboy]

interesting comment on the 110/90 is too expensive to build because of labor costs.

possibly in the UK, yet, I can assure you here in Brasil that couldn't be further from the truth.

I can get a brand new 2005 110 for R$95,000 or about U$36,000 from the dealer which includes his mark-up.

as far as a daily driver, shit, my 110 is the most reliable LR I have ever owned and I'm the second owner.

from my viewpoint, Ford just is selling what the majority of the market wants and that isn't basic Defender type vehicles. its the Discovery 3 or whatever you want to call it.



Jaime

 

[jsonova99]

interesting comment on the 110/90 is too expensive to build because of labor costs.

possibly in the UK, yet, I can assure you here in Brasil that couldn't be further from the truth.

I can get a brand new 2005 110 for R$95,000 or about U$36,000 from the dealer which includes his mark-up.

as far as a daily driver, shit, my 110 is the most reliable LR I have ever owned and I'm the second owner.

from my viewpoint, Ford just is selling what the majority of the market wants and that isn't basic Defender type vehicles. its the Discovery 3 or whatever you want to call it.



Jaime

I agree to an extent, but in relative terms it will be cheaper for Ford to move the Defender to the new chassis because they can build everything on basically the same assembly line then. The sad thing is that I believe Rovers will no longer be built in England at the Solihull plant, I could be wrong on this, but I remember reading it somewhere. Anybody else know?

I will miss the old Defender, nothing will ever have the same character. 3 more years until we finally start getting the rest of the world's old ones though, it's better than nothing.

 

[jsonova99]

I'll go out on a limb here and make a prediction. LR will not produce a defender for NAS market under the current executive team. I know there is all this talk in the auto-press and all you defender guys are all hot and bothered, but I think it's all just hype and what we call in the software industry "vapor-ware". Announcements of so-called "products" that are essentially "promises" made to create confusion or to manipulate markets and/or competitors.

I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but I just don't see how they could make the economics work for a vehicle that essentially will be competing with Jeep and Japanese models when they've taken the whole line up-market. Isn't the whole point of what LR is now doing to get away from competing in the same "X-terra" market space as Jeep and 4-runner?

THey may release a vehicle and call it a Defender, but like the LR3 is not really a Discovery, what comes will not really be a Defender.

Search the web, this "new Defender" has already been announced. I started a thread on general discussion about this with a link to an article or two about it. You're dead on, they are just going to come up with a more rugged body style and place it on the LR3 chassis for the most part. Ford wants the entire Land Rover lineup to be produced in a single plant as automated as possible from what I have read. From a purely logical standpoint, you can't blame Ford for what they are doing, from an enthusiast's standpoint, it's gutwrenching.

Like I said before, I have no problems with the new Land Rovers, but to see the Defender go is sad. That was truly a one of a kind vehicle. Like I said in my last post, atleast we will start getting the older ones in a few years from overseas, so Defenders will always be available over here.

 

[Blueboy]

Ford wants the entire Land Rover lineup to be produced in a single plant as automated as possible from what I have read.

I seriously doubt the plant here in Brasil is going to close and I doubt if Ford would spend that much money on it to produce something like a LR3 here. just too complicated.

you're info might be correct on the new Defender, yet, the ones produced here go to countries where they have to be basic - including Brasil where import costs make a Freelander sell for U$56k. they will be "up-grading" the 110/90 to the Td5 engine in 2006, yet, it stays essentially the same.

no doubt it will be interesting to see how it does pan out.


Jaime

 

[jsonova99]

I seriously doubt the plant here in Brasil is going to close and I doubt if Ford would spend that much money on it to produce something like a LR3 here. just too complicated.

you're info might be correct on the new Defender, yet, the ones produced here go to countries where they have to be basic - including Brasil where import costs make a Freelander sell for U$56k. they will be "up-grading" the 110/90 to the Td5 engine in 2006, yet, it stays essentially the same.

no doubt it will be interesting to see how it does pan out.


Jaime

Good point, Ford will still have to produce the old Defender in some capacity, it's the same principal as the old VW bug. They just stopped building those in Mexico like 1 or 2 years ago.

 

[g4hawaii]

I think it's time for a new thread, it takes too long to get to the end of this post.

 

[woodslat]

I agree to an extent, but in relative terms it will be cheaper for Ford to move the Defender to the new chassis because they can build everything on basically the same assembly line then. The sad thing is that I believe Rovers will no longer be built in England at the Solihull plant, I could be wrong on this, but I remember reading it somewhere. Anybody else know?

I will miss the old Defender, nothing will ever have the same character. 3 more years until we finally start getting the rest of the world's old ones though, it's better than nothing.

They should start building Land Rovers in California, maybe they would have better build quality-Japan trusts American hands to build bombproof vehicles (Toyota, Honda). I love the post I read about all of the dash warning lights coming on when he hit the brake pedal!

-eric

 

[SCSL]

They should start building Land Rovers in California, maybe they would have better build quality-

Talk about outrageous labor costs! The true costs of doing business in CA is litigation. High rates of workman's comp, wrongful term, etc. And politicians are working on making it even tougher w/ new labor law proposals.

 

[MarkP]

They should start building Land Rovers in California, maybe they would have better build quality-Japan trusts American hands to build bombproof vehicles (Toyota, Honda). -eric

Very little will be built in California. The cost structure is way too high. Intel warned politicians that the tax structure is too high. Buck knives left for Idaho. Unfunded public sector pensions and retirement plans are out of control. The list goes on. Most new auto factories are in the South, union free areas. Americans know how to produce high quality products when they are in partnership with the corporation. Unions break this partnership to gain power. The European, Japanese and Korean manufacturers know this and have taken advantage of GM and Ford's vulnerability.

 

[Roverlady]

Late to join

Sorry I'm a little behind in the discussion here...but...

We met a guy the other night with an LR3 (30 day tags still displayed)--first one I've seen in the area. Nice guy....but.....said he had a TAHOE before. He laughed and said "this thing is so amazing-it's fast too and so comfy. It's a great car" We asked about the Terrain Response System and he said "yeah, it's got all of that. Like, I use it all the time..he he he." He did say that the HDC kicks-in in his neighborhood though!!! We invited him to MAR.....

I'm sure the LR3 is capable. After driving an 04 RR off-road I'm more of a believer than I used to be, but it's like point and click.

I'd still take THIS over THIS ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

I reallllllly want an '04 Disco. Maybe my sis will just give me her '03 and I can add CDL someday.