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chillywater
Guest
noee said:
when you say nissan 280ZX or whatever you thinking in a completley different realm of cars than I am
when you say nissan 280ZX or whatever you thinking in a completley different realm of cars than I am
(my emphasis)
I'm just going by what you wrote. You also used the BMW analogy to illustrate the L$3 vs. Disco "argument", so what "realm" are you talking about?
Four wheel drives? Luxury sports sedans? Cars from the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s?
Chillywater, I like how you compare stock LR3s to D1s. The problem with that argument is that with the LR3 you aren't going to be doing any significant mods to speak of. For a few thousand dollars you can make a D1 extremely capable. With the LR3, you're pretty much stuck as is.
If you are so fond of the LR3, go get one and take it to Poison Spider / Golden Spike / Gold Bar Rim and see what happens. The rears of the door sills are going to be dead with the nice long car-like wheelbase. I can't wait to see the bumpers after dragging itself over half of the trail. This is just body damage. Will the CVs hold out? Time will tell.
If you are so fond of the LR3, go get one and take it to Poison Spider / Golden Spike / Gold Bar Rim and see what happens. The rears of the door sills are going to be dead with the nice long car-like wheelbase. I can't wait to see the bumpers after dragging itself over half of the trail. This is just body damage. Will the CVs hold out? Time will tell.
chillywater said:
I would have to say any and all the Pontiac Trans Ams of the 80's were pretty much junk and any one of them were a far less car than my first car which was a 1978 Trans Am....yeah the beloved Red Neck Smokey and the Bandit one.
That also goes for any and all of the GM Camero line.
I would take any 1968-1978 Camero/Z28 any day over a 1984 Iroq Z Camero
Also if you look at the the progression in the Trans Am and Camero put out by GM in the 80's and 90's it actually killed the automobile with all their added technology as both have now been discontinued by GM.
If you look at the Ford Mustang you get the same thing as well as the GM Corvette...now both cars have been redesigned to return to their roots and early form to save the car and revitalize the market for them and bring back a car that has some soul that people can be passionate about.
I think the looks and styling of the new Corvette and Mustang both are awesome and I love the old Muscle Cars. As far as a 1980 some thing Corvette you couldn't give me one.
If I won a car lotto and I had a choice between a brand new 2005 Corvette or a 1968 Super Sport Camero that would actually be a very hard decision and I would be haunted by not choosing one or the other in some certain event I am sure.
I have been accused here of writing books and I am the worlds worst about not getting directly to a point, but here is my limited view on the Land Rover LR3 from someone who really only got serious about getting a Land Rover Disco a couple years ago.
In all honesty about me I am probably one of the guys who gets the bad rap as I am probably just a poser.
I am the kind of guy that has Champaign taste, but on a beer budget.
I have always had Jeeps for 4x4 and off roding because one they are dirt cheap and two they have been produced for years.
Hence making a market of tons and tons of very cheap economical parts. I actually was thinking about getting a newer model Jeep as one of mine has 160,000 miles on it. It sets on 35's with a full Pro Comp 6" suspension lift.
I am one of the guys that out of the trails use to laugh along with all of the Toyota 4x4 guys roll my eyes and smirk when we would see one of the City Slicker Yuppies all giddy and driving up to us in their brand new 30k+ Land Rover Discovery.
We actually thought they were a joke...in truth none of the Discos could hang or really stay on the really hard trials that the Toyota's and Jeeps could maneuver with ease and most didn't attempt.
Please don't flame me I know you can build a Disco to do pretty much anything a Jeep can do as far as rock climbing etc, but my point is you don't see many that have been taken to the extreme. One reason is cost to do so.
Skyjack lifting a Jeep 6" not that expensive
Skyjack lifting a Land Rover Disco 6"- Drain you're life savings.
This being said I always kept my off road vehicles completely different then my DD. I actually was a very loyal customer to GM and buying their 4x4 Tahoe's. My first Tahoe was a 94 2 door and was decent in moderate off roding. Dirt roads crossing bar ditches etc.
I then traded up to a newer 98 4 door Tahoe luxury SUV with the auto push dash button 4wheel drive.
My experience with the newer Tahoe is it was a pig to drive anywhere off road and truly wasn't made the go off road. The vehicles is by far way to heavy and the first time I took it to the beach I got stuck as soon as I pulled into ankle high sand because guess what the push button 4 wheel drive would not engage.
I had been all over the same beach in the 94 2 door and never got stuck once.
That being said I got the 4 door because I had gotten older and wanted a more family oriented vehicle than the 2 door and I like the leather seats and all that came with the SLT and traded up from the Tahoe Sport.
The vehicles were basically one in the same but very different. I never hardly had problem 1 with the 2 door all the way to K. The 4 door after 75K was nothing but one problem after another.
Also the 2 door was really easy to work on myself...the 4 door I just took to the dealer.
The 2 door with the throttle body 350 could just barley handle pulling my 24' Crownline boat on tandem axle trailer. I mean it just could barely handle it.
The 4 door with the big Vortec fuel injected pulled it with ease and I wasn't ever scared going into a high wind that the weight of the boat and the wind might actually start pulling me back wards when I was in drive.
The drivers side seat in the 2 door would actually rock back about 6 inches any time you took off from a red light because the damn seats would wear when the kids were getting in out all the time and one main reason I ended up getting the 4 door and never had one problem with the 4 door seats coming loose.
I also trailer my big Jeep and take it out and don't drive it on the street even though it is street legal. I used the Chevy's to pull it out to the trails and get the jeep where I wanted to be to unload it.
I also had a street Jeep at the time, have since sold that had a 3" Leaf Spring lift on running 33" tires and it had never really been taken off road.
The point of my latest Disco Web novel is like everyone has said each vehicle serves it's purpose in one way or another.
I love the look of the new LR3 if I had a couple million in my bank account would I buy one. Of course I would....would I take it off road as soon as I just dropped 60K on one. "HELL NO I WOULDN'T!!"
Would I use it to pull my older 94 Modded Disco on a trailer out to the trails....sure I would.
I don't care who you are in my own personal opinion, if you do not have the cash money in you're bank account to pay cash for a brand new 4x4 vehicle of any kind, but finance it and the first thing you want to do is take it out to the trails while you have to make a $700 dollar car payment on it every month...I think is just ludicrous and I don't care if you consider yourself upper class and wealthy making just over 6 figures a year...100k or just 6 figures a year is far from being rich or " wealthy"
On the other hand if you're a heart surgeon and you make six figures or close to it a month and have a cool million in a fun times account to sluff off for tax purposes then I say knock yourself out. Buy a new LR3 pay the best 4x4 shop around to ripped all the tech shit out of it bringing it to a bare bones shell and Custom Mod the shit out of it and you may have the most capable off Road 4x4 in the entire LR history line.
If you have a Disco 2 that is paid off or almost paid off and are bitten with the LR3 bug I say instead of trading it in on the LR3, save up you're money for a down payment on the LR3 and keep the Disco 1 or 2 as you're weekend fun toy.
Mod the hell out of the old one...buy a 16" flat bed trailer and pull the old big modded D2 out to the trails with the new LR3.
Then if you break something on the old one that you can't fix...have some one tow you out to where you can get you're very capable LR3 in to pick it up and take it home and you're not in a panic oh shit situation where you are telling you're wife you're rig is broke and she will have to wake up early to take you into work.
From a logical stand point I would never do any moderate to heavy offroading in any vehicle I was making a payment on each month.
Do I think the LR3 are cool...yes I do for an expensive grocery getter, but for a reliable off road vehicle at this time with limited resources of repair, parts and mods...unless you are filthy rich no I don't. Let the really rich guys buy the LR3's for 60k and wear the new off them until they decide to mod them up as new demand for mods come available and then you turn around and buy one in 3 to 4 yrs for 15k and pay cash for it.
Now the thing I HATE about the LR3 and I will try to keep it short...I now look at the Disco D1 and D2 about like I look at the Porsche 914. It was a car in production for just a few years which makes the parts market way up and down and parts for the older ones scarce.
My feeling looking at Disco 1-2's is that with the more that came out that was close or similar to earlier year models parts cost would come down and the difference from pricing on this forum to say any Jeep wheeling 4x4 forum is completely different.
I got absolutely attacked here for looking at flipping a lightly hit in the front 97 Disco XD in the for sale section. All the body damage had been fixed accept a hood. People went off on me in that thread and still are and the truck sold over a month ago.
If it was a Jeep I was looking at flipping on a message board people would have went Ape wanting to know if it would make a daily driver or a trail rig.
I am having some problems fitting in with this crowd because we seem to have a much different philosophy about trail rigs, but I am trying and I know it seems I am way out of my league here I will admit.
People buy and sell 4x4 Jeeps and Toyota's all the time on forums and people buy just frames and good CJ rollers that don't have rust and I never see anyone ever attacked for selling a vehicle wether they are trying to make a little profit off it or not.
In closing I want to say this whole debate over the LR3 reminds me of the whole Hummer H1 or H2 argument and one reason I think the powers at be designed a new Land Rover to try to capture some of the Hummer market.
Personally I don't like the H2 I don't think it is a capable off road vehicle in the least and they are a bitch to get unstuck and yank out...and you have to cross you're fingers you don't break something important pulling them out...Like tie rods or even axles because of the weight of those beast. So, that being said I have to say I completely understand the old school opinion of Rovers past and the heel dragging from the Rover loyal over Land Rovers new marketing stratagy which seems along the same lines as GM's marketing stratagy on the H2.
My personal opinion and I have been in both....an H2 doesn't make a paint pimple on a H1's back tailgate and with all the customazation you can do to make a H1 a luxery vehicle pluss very capable off road vehicle were you don't have to worry about the 8ft width of the old D1 there is really actually no reason at all for an H2 to exists accept for a marketing ploy...and I guess the same could be said for the LR3.
Man this whole thread has been some great reading and very entertaining and all valid points on both sides and I hope you all can respect an opinion from a Rover Novice.
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freeflytim
Guest
Ruppsrover said:Dude, you gotta shorten the posts a little.
Hey Steve,
Chillywater has the same major complaint about me, so I will work on not being so long winded.
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syoung
Guest
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Kyle
Guest
Interesting Posts......
Time will tell about the LR3, the upcoming LR2, and whatever else Land Rover morphs onto the T5 chassis with airbags. It's funny, I thought that the D2 was a bit complicated. But, I have been reading some other sites about this rolling LR3 PC and damn, it's just as complicated as one of my airplanes! Software updates? Lose a sensor lose functionality of an entire system? WTF?
Ian,
I was at Plaza last night getting some bolts for the Pig. Not only did they have the bolts I needed, they didn't charge me for them. I was shocked.
Time will tell about the LR3, the upcoming LR2, and whatever else Land Rover morphs onto the T5 chassis with airbags. It's funny, I thought that the D2 was a bit complicated. But, I have been reading some other sites about this rolling LR3 PC and damn, it's just as complicated as one of my airplanes! Software updates? Lose a sensor lose functionality of an entire system? WTF?
Ian,
I was at Plaza last night getting some bolts for the Pig. Not only did they have the bolts I needed, they didn't charge me for them. I was shocked.
Help me to understand
I would be interested to hear, from a Ford executive, why they don't feel there's a market for D 90 & 110. I realize that the LandRoverHead community, as represented here, is relatively small. But the market responds to unique vehicles. Jeep Rubicon has apparently done well (?). Look at H2,,, I can just see the Hollywood campaign now,,, Ahhhnold pulling up to charity event, smoking a cigar, in a tricked out 90 (Lara Croft style) or P-Diddy crusing in a 110 with bazookas, 20" spinning rims, and roof-rack-jacuzzi,,,,,,,,,, oh yeah, and a few of us actually wheelin' in 'em. Just seems that whatever company has the nads to produce a vehicle that isn't just another rendition of the same old thing,,,something unique,,,does fairly well. Just look at the prices and market times of Defenders in U.S. market,,, Given the lack of complicated electronics, I would think a bare-bones Defender would be among the cheapest vehicles for LR to produce. What am I missing here?
I would be interested to hear, from a Ford executive, why they don't feel there's a market for D 90 & 110. I realize that the LandRoverHead community, as represented here, is relatively small. But the market responds to unique vehicles. Jeep Rubicon has apparently done well (?). Look at H2,,, I can just see the Hollywood campaign now,,, Ahhhnold pulling up to charity event, smoking a cigar, in a tricked out 90 (Lara Croft style) or P-Diddy crusing in a 110 with bazookas, 20" spinning rims, and roof-rack-jacuzzi,,,,,,,,,, oh yeah, and a few of us actually wheelin' in 'em. Just seems that whatever company has the nads to produce a vehicle that isn't just another rendition of the same old thing,,,something unique,,,does fairly well. Just look at the prices and market times of Defenders in U.S. market,,, Given the lack of complicated electronics, I would think a bare-bones Defender would be among the cheapest vehicles for LR to produce. What am I missing here?
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chillywater
Guest
SCSL said:
I agree completley, if mercedes can pull off selling G-wagons for the price they do why can't we have a damn defender in the US??? It seems like Land Rover looks at the US like its all highway here and nowhere to offroad.... I mean we are like the only country that doesn't have new defenders every year. But the way I look at it its there loss, look how shitty the freelander has done, don't these idiots that are running things at LR realize they're making a mistake
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chillywater
Guest
SCSL I know we should run things there, but if we ran LR who would get there ford escapes then...i mean freelanders
Junk Man - good perspective. I know where you are coming from. Me, I came from the IH Scout side. Had three, I'm now down to one. Here in Colorado Scouts are everywhere. Why have they been around for so long? Simplicity AND the ability to modify it like a kit car. When I went looking for a more long trip family friendly truck the D1 was as close to a Scout as I could find. Did I off road my D1 as much as my Scout? Initially no. Going forward will I? Yes because I will have built it the way I want and will have other vehicles that I can use for DD if I break it.
As for the Defender, hey guys and girls it's Ford. Both Ford and GM aren't doing very well with what I will call "Product Vision". Sales are off at both companies. I personally don't like the direction that Land Rover, as part of the Premier Auto Group, is taking with future products. It all looks like street racing AWD products. I like the Aston Martin / Jaguar styling and product vision but that doesn't mean it should be applied to Land Rover. If Land Rover continues down that path then Jeep will eat them alive with the off-road, active-life, younger (future customer) crowd and they will be trying to justify why a customer should buy a LR3 vs. a Toyota / Honda SUV. Maybe that's what they want.
As for Defender cost, while it is a simple vehicle, it is mostly hand assembled. In these days of pinching manufacturing pennies that is unheard of unless it's a high end low volume sports car. Defender labor cost are probably very high. That doesn't say LR can't bring it back to the US. That takes product line vision which Ford is lacking.
As for the Defender, hey guys and girls it's Ford. Both Ford and GM aren't doing very well with what I will call "Product Vision". Sales are off at both companies. I personally don't like the direction that Land Rover, as part of the Premier Auto Group, is taking with future products. It all looks like street racing AWD products. I like the Aston Martin / Jaguar styling and product vision but that doesn't mean it should be applied to Land Rover. If Land Rover continues down that path then Jeep will eat them alive with the off-road, active-life, younger (future customer) crowd and they will be trying to justify why a customer should buy a LR3 vs. a Toyota / Honda SUV. Maybe that's what they want.
As for Defender cost, while it is a simple vehicle, it is mostly hand assembled. In these days of pinching manufacturing pennies that is unheard of unless it's a high end low volume sports car. Defender labor cost are probably very high. That doesn't say LR can't bring it back to the US. That takes product line vision which Ford is lacking.
V22Guy said:
Hey I agree with you're assesment 100% I read about Land Rover Discovery on this site and several others for 2 years before deciding to take the plunge, actually buying one.
I even read tons and tons of layman's and customer reviews about the Disco 1 and 2 and most reviews from the Suburban Housewife wasn't too kind. The funny thing is that it wasn't the vehicle itself per-say, but problems with the vehicles even right off the show room floor.
The Disco 1 and 2 really doesn't have NASA Technology built in them, but man did they have some problems with what little high tech stuff they did put in them. Which really I think hurt Land Rover in the long run.
Especially when most Americans today are comparing everything they buy to Jap stuff. Where they buy it drive it 200k miles and never even change the oil or rotate the tires.
I guess Ford has taken the realm and with their magic wand have made the LR3 an miracle.
Coming from a Jeep persons perspective the more bare bones it is the more reliable it will be.
The LR3 is built like the friggin Space Shuttle and we saw what happed to it when just a little piece of foam broke off on take off. Lets hope that type of major catastrophes doesn't start happening to every LR3 owner 15,000 miles down the road with all their new high tech stuff or it might be the stick that breaks the Camels back.
Ford is a huge car company, but if the LR3 starts breaking on a daily basis before 50,000 miles and Ford has to recall and recall and recall. I'm not even sure in a lagging economy they could handle that.
Just have to wait and see
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I could not agree more on the Defender, there is no vehicle on earth that I would rather be driving. The argument Land Rover puts forth is that it is not cheap to build because it requires too much manual intervention. I guess they have automated assemblylines to produce the new vehicles on (LR3, Rangies, etc) so it will be cheaper to just take the LR3 and slap a different body on it. I'm not going to knock the LR3, I personally ahve nothing against it except that I think it's overpriced. Now before everybody jumps on me go back and read the rest of this thread and there is plenty of info on either side of that argument. Anyway, the allure of the Defender was the no frills purpose built aspect of it. The new Defender will not be like that, and to me that defeats the purpose of the Defender. That's my two cents. Now I'm sure 10 people will chime in and tell me I'm an idiot because I think that way like they did before, but I don't care, and I know there are a lot of people who feel the way I do. Will the new Defender be a success? Probably, but I would rather drop a lot less money on the imports that will be here in 3 years than get one of those just because I don't think the new one will have the same eccentricity and stand alone nature that the Defender as we know it does.
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ducati
Guest
The problems with the Defender are numerous: 1. they are unreliable as a daily driver and LR wouldn't want any more of that stigma, 2. they are expensive to build (lots of manual labor, I remember reading the LR3 was 70% automated or something crazy like that), 3. they can't meet US safety and emissions regs... And honestly, outside of the first year of halo sales (to those of us that have always wanted one) I don't think they would sell. Who is going to buy something like a D90 for $45k (just a guesstimate of pricing based upon last imported model) when you could buy a Jeep Rubicon for $25k? Well, some of us would, but not THAT many. In a put up or shut up world I guess there would be very few actual orders (say, under 500 from the offroad crowd). Maybe more... But >2000 or so? Naaah.
That's one big issue--the young-n's and lots of the heavy offroad crowd couldn't afford a new Defender unless LR presented them as a money-losing proposition. It's not a Jeep, and couldn't be priced as one. Check out the Wrangler factory (there's a video tour somewhere on the web)--even though the Wrangler is still old tech, and the factory is pretty old tech, it's light years ahead of Defender production.
I would have loved to see the Defender back in the USA one more time... But financially I just don't see it happening... Ford is already in a precarious position.
NOW... We may all think they are idiots for not bringing the Defender... But sales were up 24% for April in an odd market. Ford knows what they are doing, and I doubt the Defender is part of it . Sales Figures
That's one big issue--the young-n's and lots of the heavy offroad crowd couldn't afford a new Defender unless LR presented them as a money-losing proposition. It's not a Jeep, and couldn't be priced as one. Check out the Wrangler factory (there's a video tour somewhere on the web)--even though the Wrangler is still old tech, and the factory is pretty old tech, it's light years ahead of Defender production.
I would have loved to see the Defender back in the USA one more time... But financially I just don't see it happening... Ford is already in a precarious position.
NOW... We may all think they are idiots for not bringing the Defender... But sales were up 24% for April in an odd market. Ford knows what they are doing, and I doubt the Defender is part of it
. Sales Figures
V22Guy said:Ian,
I was at Plaza last night getting some bolts for the Pig. Not only did they have the bolts I needed, they didn't charge me for them. I was shocked.
YOUR shocked!
Imagine my suprise to hear they did anything above and beyond.
Yeah Chris,
I was waiting for the guy to quote me a price for $10 for the 4 bolts. But no, they were very nice and hooked me up. Maybe they expected me to buy an LR3 last night during my moment of confusion
BTW, they had a Carrera GT in the showroom. That is one bad ass car.
I was waiting for the guy to quote me a price for $10 for the 4 bolts. But no, they were very nice and hooked me up. Maybe they expected me to buy an LR3 last night during my moment of confusion
BTW, they had a Carrera GT in the showroom. That is one bad ass car.