Moab closed...

terryjm1

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Jan 23, 2011
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You guys out west still have it much better than most of us on the East here do, at least here in Indiana. I think the only public off-road park is Interlake, and then there are a few private areas. Back when I had my CJ there were thousands and thousands of acres of old strip mines, but those have either been re-striped and turned into prairies, or have been leased/ bought by hunting clubs.
I live close to numerous abandoned mines (not strip mines) in the desert. Most are privately owned. I’m not sure why someone would want an abandoned mine. Hunting, maybe? I have a friend that is an avid “rock hound” and knows some of the owners. We joined him on a rock hunt. The areas we visited would be a paradise for off roading but the owners would not allow it. We found beautiful rocks, however. Calling them rocks really doesn’t do them justice.
 
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DiscoHasBeen

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Aug 7, 2016
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I live close to numerous abandoned mines (not strip mines) in the desert. Most are privately owned. I’m not sure why someone would want an abandoned mine. Hunting, maybe? I have a friend that is an avid “rock hound” and knows some of the owners. We joined him on a rock hunt. The areas we visited would be a paradise for off roading but the owners would not allow it. We found beautiful rocks, however. Calling them rocks really doesn’t do them justice.
Strip mine here look more like this.
DCP_1021.jpg
DCP_1061.jpg
DCP_1103.jpgDCP_1158.jpg
 
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terryjm1

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Jan 23, 2011
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It actually borders two Mexicos, one is just newer than the other. But if that worries you, wait till you find out it also borders Oklahoma! LOL

Fearing crime visiting an area that borders Mexico, particularly a national park, in my opinion, is unwarranted. I live 90 miles from Juarez and frequently travel fairly close to the border. (I have yet to find myself in what I consider a dangerous area during those visits.)

El Paso (border city with Juarez) is statistically one the safest large cities in the country. I lived in Saint Louis for 50 years, one of the statistically least safe cities in the country. On a regular basis I found myself in places I considered dangerous and it is pretty darn far from Mexico. Two places I have experienced (personally) crime were the Metro (light rail) and downtown particularly when in a parking lot. I worked in public safety and had an insider view of crime, the actual crime not the media reported crime.

Specifically, where I now live in the middle of nowhere New Mexico in the forest, crime is extremely low but when crime does happen, it almost exclusively is done by locals that remind of characters in Deliverance. Recently, a local shot an killed a convenience store clerk because she refused to give him free gas. This is in a town of less than 100 residents. It was later revealed he had been ”camping“ a various locations on a rancher’s land.

I also don’t watch the national news. When I did, after reviewing objective statistics, I concluded a lot of it is just cherry picked stories to promote fear mongering.

The worst crime I have a direct connection to is a neighbor’s son was killed when a born and raised American citizen decided to try and drive through a border patrol check point just outside El Paso in New Mexico (not at the border… same one Snoop Dog got busted). The agents chased him and the driver tragically killed my neighbor’s 22 year old son striking his motorcycle at a stop light. He was carrying 15 pounds of fentanyl. The media barely made note of it. Only the tiny local newspaper carried the story. I would not even have known about it if it wasn’t a neighbor.

So, my advice, enjoy your national parks as much as you can and be smart like you would anywhere about being safe.
 
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dcphotos

Member
Nov 19, 2021
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2
Austin, TX
Couldn’t agree more. Personally, Im more concerned with the BLM closing down trials in Moab than anything happening on the border.
I’ve been to BB about six times and we’re headed back in a month or two. Never had a worry. I tell all my friends to make sure you bring your passport and go have lunch in Bouquillas. Great people and great food.
my wife and I trekked around Moab a few months back. Our first time. We are both upset about these road closures. And yes, I’m concerned BB will close backroads too so we are headed out there before that might happen.
 
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bri

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Apr 20, 2004
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It actually borders two Mexicos, one is just newer than the other. But if that worries you, wait till you find out it also borders Oklahoma! LOL

It doesn't worry me, just something to consider safety wise. Especially if traveling alone like me.

Only one MX and Oklahoma is on opposite side of state.

Exclamation point!
 

bri

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Apr 20, 2004
6,183
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Fearing crime visiting an area that borders Mexico, particularly a national park, in my opinion, is unwarranted. I live 90 miles from Juarez and frequently travel fairly close to the border. (I have yet to find myself in what I consider a dangerous area during those visits.)

El Paso (border city with Juarez) is statistically one the safest large cities in the country. I lived in Saint Louis for 50 years, one of the statistically least safe cities in the country. On a regular basis I found myself in places I considered dangerous and it is pretty darn far from Mexico. Two places I have experienced (personally) crime were the Metro (light rail) and downtown particularly when in a parking lot. I worked in public safety and had an insider view of crime, the actual crime not the media reported crime.

Specifically, where I now live in the middle of nowhere New Mexico in the forest, crime is extremely low but when crime does happen, it almost exclusively is done by locals that remind of characters in Deliverance. Recently, a local shot an killed a convenience store clerk because she refused to give him free gas. This is in a town of less than 100 residents. It was later revealed he had been ”camping“ a various locations on a rancher’s land.

I also don’t watch the national news. When I did, after reviewing objective statistics, I concluded a lot of it is just cherry picked stories to promote fear mongering.

The worst crime I have a direct connection to is a neighbor’s son was killed when a born and raised American citizen decided to try and drive through a border patrol check point just outside El Paso in New Mexico (not at the border… same one Snoop Dog got busted). The agents chased him and the driver tragically killed my neighbor’s 22 year old son striking his motorcycle at a stop light. He was carrying 15 pounds of fentanyl. The media barely made note of it. Only the tiny local newspaper carried the story. I would not even have known about it if it wasn’t a neighbor.

So, my advice, enjoy your national parks as much as you can and be smart like you would anywhere about being safe.
For the record. I never said I was in fear. I wondered about safety in a national park bordering MX. It is a valid question these days, yeah?

Go down to the border at Del Rio or Eagle Pass and report back to us! I've been to border cities in AZ and TX, would not consider them safe, but then neither is Denver.

Kind of interesting you boast statistics about El Paso and personal experience with drug smuggling and death in the same post.

There are lies, darned lies and statistics.

"According to Texas crime rate by city, El Paso had 10,378 property crimes in 2019, which consisted of 8,479 thefts, 1,048 burglaries, and 851 vehicle thefts. Additionally, there were 2,422 violent crimes, 1,734 of them being assaults, 338 robberies, 310 rapes, and 40 murders.

Overall, El Paso is a safe city, as most of these numbers are still below the state and national averages. However, the murder rate is higher than the national and state averages, and rape and assault rates are higher than the national average."

 

bri

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Apr 20, 2004
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Here in NM I am surrounded by off road options on public land. They are so expansive it’s not common to even come across someone outside of hunting season and holidays. Recently a small portion of the forest here was closed to protect a species of butterflies that only exists locally. From memory it was only about 300 acres out of thousands and was temporary. By the public reaction you would have thought it was the entire forest. To an extent there is good reason for the negative public reaction. But, it is really not about the closure itself, which affected a minimal area, it’s about how it is reported and repeated. The story changes from a few hundred acres temporarily closed to “The forest is closed indefinitely!” People hear this and then do not visit, which really hurts the local economy. My wife owns a small business here and these blown out of proportion accounts of the closures does hurt her business.

On a separate note, I have a neighbor who WAS a game warden. He discovered an endangered mouse on some land the forest service leases to ranchers. (It is funny coming across cattle in the woods… my dogs don’t know what to think.)

When the forest service declined to renew a rancher’s lease he was confronted on his regular rounds by some ranchers at gunpoint. It’s important to note there are many other areas available to ranchers that go unleased. He resigned shortly after and now works for a local oil company helping them comply with EPA regulations. If he hadn’t told me the story I wouldn’t have believed it. I would have assumed it was a Hollywood story. It’s sad he left the forest service. He isnt some ”crazy liberal” that doesn’t understand. He is an avid outdoorsman and hunter born and raised here. He is extremely well educated as well, which isn’t typical of locals here. His wife manages a local store that caters to campers, hunters, and just about anyone that enjoys the outdoors. He very knowledgeably explained why the mice were important to supporting other wildlife. Also, there are a lot of wild horses here and with no natural predators we now see them quite often, even walking on the highway through town. About a year ago my wife witnessed a horse being born about 30 feet from the highway. He pointed out how much damage the horses do to the forest, much more than cattle which are limited to only certain areas that are more resilient to the damage they cause. I was unaware but he informed me they are not native to this area and have spread out from the nearby Native American reservation. He also said we are not doing anywhere near enough prescribed burns.

I recently purchased two ATVS. I am brand new to the ATV world. One is for me and one for my son. As one of them is really old and needed repair I joined an ATV forum which was very helpful in getting the repairs done. One person posted some photos of the damage done by some idiots going off the established trail becasue they found a muddy spot to do donuts and other silly things. One of the other forum members, who is a moderator, said it was most likely “illegal migrants that are here to steal our belongings and take our jobs.” That is a direct quote. Wow! His post got a ton of likes. Common sense has been taken over by politics. People let extremist politics get way too much into their lives and minds. From the stories I have heard from my former game warden friend it is wealthy tourists that do the vast majority of the damage.

The history as to why and how we have public lands is interesting. From my perspective, the same mindsets that get really worked up over conservation regulations are right in line with those that originally opposed setting aside land for public recreation activities. If the “government” had not done it so long ago there likely would be no public land for recreation.
I am shocked. I guess I need to head south. Even some of the most remote spots in WY are now over run by van life, 4x4 and other idiots. Happened summer of 2020 and not gone back yet.
 

terryjm1

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Jan 23, 2011
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As a big city it’s got crime but per capita, for a big city it’s pretty darn good. According to Forbes, El Paso is the 4th safest large city in the nation for cities with over 300,000 residents.


Note where St. Louis ranks and then take a look at El Paso. My point is that proximity to the Mexican border whether it be a city or national park is not correlated with crime rates compared to regions very far from the Mexican border. I was only reacting to your comment about Big Bend being adjacent to Mexico. My point is that people shouldn’t let proximity to the Mexican border impact their decision on what parks to visit, or for that matter what cities they visit.

Also, take a look at their list of safest cities and how many are fairly close to the Mexican border.

As far as illegal immigration and drug smuggling goes, you have to dive deeper into where the vast majority comes over the border. Have you seen the video of the hundreds of tunnels? I read a good article about the tunnels. The cartels have incredible resources. How about the huge number of tractor trailers that pass through the border every day.

Here are a couple good reports that discuss drug smuggling.


Here is another one.


Here is a bullet point from this one. I am referencing this as I discussed a specific example of a phentanyl caused crime. with very local impact. In this case, it was a US citizen that caused this tragedy.

Which lies are you referencing?

By the way I just loaded the ATVs on the trailer and we are headed out today. We don’t typically go out on holidays. I will report back if we are as “lonely” on the trails today as a typical day.
 
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DiscoHasBeen

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Aug 7, 2016
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So you NM guys. My brother lives there. About 15 yrs or so ago he was talking about going trail riding with his son on their Fourman. He started bitching he was loosing access to places because if the road crossed a creek, without a bridge, the crossing was not allowed because of the sediment it would stir up. So did he read the law wrong? Were crossings allowed just not riding up and down the creek?
 

terryjm1

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Jan 23, 2011
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We just got back and we only saw a few campers and a total of three trucks parked with empty trailers that almost certainly had ATVs, most likely side by sides. But, we didn’t see anyone on the trails. We were riding for a little over 2 hours. Usually we dont see a soul, so I guess this is what holidays look like here. We live about 10 miles from the tourist oriented village and about 5 miles from these specific trails, just about half way to the village. Later in the week we are going to head to an area called Red Sands in the desert that is specifically for OHVs. It’s really close to White Sands National Park.

To be completely clear, we were not in a National Park, we were in the Lincoln National Forest. We only came across one closed gate but I have no idea why it was closed. It didn’t limit us at all. There were plenty of options.

On the question about a road crossing a creek and it being closed, I haven’t seen that. I guess it matters that the only time those waterways here have water in them is when it rains… a lot. It’s pretty dry here and we are at high elevation in far southern New Mexico. Maybe they are easier on us here due to the dry climate. I dunno.
 
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bri

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As a big city it’s got crime but per capita, for a big city it’s pretty darn good. According to Forbes, El Paso is the 4th safest large city in the nation for cities with over 300,000 residents.


Note where St. Louis ranks and then take a look at El Paso. My point is that proximity to the Mexican border whether it be a city or national park is not correlated with crime rates compared to regions very far from the Mexican border. I was only reacting to your comment about Big Bend being adjacent to Mexico. My point is that people shouldn’t let proximity to the Mexican border impact their decision on what parks to visit, or for that matter what cities they visit.

Also, take a look at their list of safest cities and how many are fairly close to the Mexican border.

As far as illegal immigration and drug smuggling goes, you have to dive deeper into where the vast majority comes over the border. Have you seen the video of the hundreds of tunnels? I read a good article about the tunnels. The cartels have incredible resources. How about the huge number of tractor trailers that pass through the border every day.

Here are a couple good reports that discuss drug smuggling.


Here is another one.


Here is a bullet point from this one. I am referencing this as I discussed a specific example of a phentanyl caused crime. with very local impact. In this case, it was a US citizen that caused this tragedy.

Which lies are you referencing?

By the way I just loaded the ATVs on the trailer and we are headed out today. We don’t typically go out on holidays. I will report back if we are as “lonely” on the trails today as a typical day.

If you are talking about my comment on lies, darned lies and statistics. It is attributed to Mark Twain and is accurate. Statistics can be twisted to any means you wish. El Paso, Denver, <almost> all the major cities in the USA have gone to the crapper and are more dangerous than most 3rd world nations at this point. I feel safer in most 3rd world central america and SE asian cities than I do in USA these days.

I will tell you what. I will call the ranger and see how safe he says Big Bend is for a solo traveler and report back. Cool?

But, where there is a will there is a way. Since my wife is 100% dependent on care for the past few years, I play it safe. I let all the local rangers know about where I am and when. They come in and check up on me, we chat and have a wonderful time. Their service is to be commended. I do this when I go to National Monuments and BLM and I am certain, they would give me support in Big Bend if they are able.

I have been down to El Paso and into Chihuaha. As a solo traveler even before the current immigration/cartel stuff it is pretty humbling.
 

terryjm1

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Jan 23, 2011
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If you are talking about my comment on lies, darned lies and statistics. It is attributed to Mark Twain and is accurate. Statistics can be twisted to any means you wish.
In my first college statistics class the professor early in his introduction made this statement, “I’m going to teach you how to lie with numbers.“ But, he then spent the rest the class detailing how important statistics are when developed and used properly. In reference to crime, that little town i previously mentioned where the clerk was shot and killed, per capita, had the highest murder rate in country last year. But… it’s the only crime (outside of petty theft and domestic crime) they have had in many years and the only murder in its modern history. Statistics are really not of value if the sample size is small and or biased. That’s an easy way to “lie” with stats. But without any statistical analysis all you really have is subjective hearsay. There are good stats and bad stats. The good stats come from very large sample sizes carefully done to avoid subjective bias. The guy was brilliant. He was well known by Vegas casinos and is no longer allowed to visit them. Do you remember the show let’s make a deal? He had the class do an experiment using the same concept. After you pick one of three doors after the prize of the door is revealed you are offered the chance to change to select another door. I still don’t understand it but consistency you were better off changing to another door. We did several cycles of 100. Those that changed were always around 66% better off changing. Our “prizes“ were coins and our doors were little boxes.

Its never a bad idea to be cautious. Speaking with the ranger sounds like a good idea, no matter where the NP is located. One of my son’s best friend‘s father is a retired CHP trooper. He lived in Yuma, AZ but worked mostly in San Diego. The cost of living in Yuma, until recently, was very much lower than San Diego. The CHP has an amazing pension, by the way. He also, later in his career was assigned to a narcotics task force that resulted in undercover work in Mexico. Our conversations have not caused me to be concerned about visiting any national park.

Now, this next statement is the smallest sample size you will likely find. I live in a really small town where sooner or later you meet everyone. Listening to some of our neighbors you would think we live in Juarez. My wife owns a yoga studio in the adjacent tourist oriented village. Some of my neighbors thinks she is a witch because she teaches yoga. They consider her a criminal... for teaching yoga. LOL, those people scare me.

I am 100% going to stop now as this is way off topic. My apologies.
 

Tugela

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May 21, 2007
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Seattle
In my first college statistics class the professor early in his introduction made this statement, “I’m going to teach you how to lie with numbers.“

I taught graduate level statistics for three years. That was fun, I miss it. And I did teach my students to manipulate data so they could identify when other people were doing it. Statistics isn't inherently good or bad, it's like any other tool whose application depends on the objectives of those who wield it. I showed classes how you could demonstrate that there was no gender pay gap even when the data overwhelming demonstrates it exists. After the final exam I'd take classes to a Mexican restaurant where we'd set up a craps table in the back room to illustrate probability. I held office hours at a bar, because experience taught me that stats is a stressful subject for a lot of people and they learn better when they are relaxed about it. If you know what you are doing it is amazingly easy to deceive with statistics. Fortunately, it's also easy to spot it and correct it with a little training. Hopefully the few hundred students I taught took that skill into the world with them. And I hope they had fun learning.
 
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bri

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Apr 20, 2004
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In my first college statistics class the professor early in his introduction made this statement, “I’m going to teach you how to lie with numbers.“ But, he then spent the rest the class detailing how important statistics are when developed and used properly. In reference to crime, that little town i previously mentioned where the clerk was shot and killed, per capita, had the highest murder rate in country last year. But… it’s the only crime (outside of petty theft and domestic crime) they have had in many years and the only murder in its modern history. Statistics are really not of value if the sample size is small and or biased. That’s an easy way to “lie” with stats. But without any statistical analysis all you really have is subjective hearsay. There are good stats and bad stats. The good stats come from very large sample sizes carefully done to avoid subjective bias. The guy was brilliant. He was well known by Vegas casinos and is no longer allowed to visit them. Do you remember the show let’s make a deal? He had the class do an experiment using the same concept. After you pick one of three doors after the prize of the door is revealed you are offered the chance to change to select another door. I still don’t understand it but consistency you were better off changing to another door. We did several cycles of 100. Those that changed were always around 66% better off changing. Our “prizes“ were coins and our doors were little boxes.

Its never a bad idea to be cautious. Speaking with the ranger sounds like a good idea, no matter where the NP is located. One of my son’s best friend‘s father is a retired CHP trooper. He lived in Yuma, AZ but worked mostly in San Diego. The cost of living in Yuma, until recently, was very much lower than San Diego. The CHP has an amazing pension, by the way. He also, later in his career was assigned to a narcotics task force that resulted in undercover work in Mexico. Our conversations have not caused me to be concerned about visiting any national park.

Now, this next statement is the smallest sample size you will likely find. I live in a really small town where sooner or later you meet everyone. Listening to some of our neighbors you would think we live in Juarez. My wife owns a yoga studio in the adjacent tourist oriented village. Some of my neighbors thinks she is a witch because she teaches yoga. They consider her a criminal... for teaching yoga. LOL, those people scare me.

I am 100% going to stop now as this is way off topic. My apologies.

The quote is really meant to point out the issue with statistics. When I started to look up the crime stats reference in the above it quickly became a rat hole. I used to keep tons of stats on violence and gun violence. I am a pretty well traveled person and have been in some of the most dangerous cities on earth, but no wars. I can handle myself very well, but no longer like the hassle of going somewhere alone without thought or concern. Thus my questions.

The park is in close proximity to places were 2M criminals, some from very far lands, some smuggling people and some smuggling the most horrific drugs that are killing REAL americans. These people could be desparate for water and food and if dying might go to extremes to get it. Granted, if they do not steal it from me I might very well just give it to them or hand them a life straw. Who knows, I am just planning in advance and preparing. I missed the ranger by 15 min today. I will call in the AM tomorrow.

I would say that you are 66.6667% more likely to be better off if you choose one of 3 boxes.
Its DWeb. No worries being way off topic. And certainly no need for apologies. All of it was an interesting read.

Its a freaking forum to have fun at yeah? I agree @Blueboy
 
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terryjm1

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Jan 23, 2011
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I taught graduate level statistics for three years. That was fun, I miss it. And I did teach my students to manipulate data so they could identify when other people were doing it. Statistics isn't inherently good or bad, it's like any other tool whose application depends on the objectives of those who wield it. I showed classes how you could demonstrate that there was no gender pay gap even when the data overwhelming demonstrates it exists. After the final exam I'd take classes to a Mexican restaurant where we'd set up a craps table in the back room to illustrate probability. I held office hours at a bar, because experience taught me that stats is a stressful subject for a lot of people and they learn better when they are relaxed about it. If you know what you are doing it is amazingly easy to deceive with statistics. Fortunately, it's also easy to spot it and correct it with a little training. Hopefully the few hundred students I taught took that skill into the world with them. And I hope they had fun learning.
I expect I would have enjoyed your classes. My first stats class was fun, because the professor made it fun and I learned a lot. He liked to turn everything into a game. He was banned from casinos because he somehow figured out a system to win at the roulette tables. The second one (graduate) was much more serious and a learned a lot but didn’t retain nearly as much as the first class, the undergraduate class.