Newtown, Conn.

[JohnB]

This can't be a serious post.

Very serious. So many in this country are about personal responsibility. Time to own up to those words. Leave your gun where a nut case can get it and kills someone. You go to jail.

 

[jgdisco2]

Saw this on another forum, it's a few yrs old(2009 I think) but I think it's still very relative and contains many interesting facts http://www.pseudology.org/Crim/GunFacts5_1.pdf

 

[wheelen disco]

Very serious. So many in this country are about personal responsibility. Time to own up to those words. Leave your gun where a nut case can get it and kills someone. You go to jail.

What if I leave my keys in my car, and my car is stolen by a "nut case" , and used in a robbery . Do I go to jail?

 

[ptschram]

What if I leave my keys in my car, and my car is stolen by a "nut case" , and used in a robbery . Do I go to jail?

What if I leave my plowshare in the field and someone uses it to beat someone to death?

 

[jafir]

What if I leave my plowshare in the field and someone uses it to beat someone to death?

Did this plowshare begin life as a sword?

 

[Blueboy]

Just as a reminder how the 2nd actually is written: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arm shall not be infringed.

This right already has been infringed and now it is starting to be considered a privilege by some.

Although a very tired cliche, it still is true: guns don't kill, people do.

 

[rovercanus]

x2. Except the secular part. I don't know how to go about pegging the value and sanctity of human life as a secular concept.

Why? You need an invisible sky faery to determine what life is worth?

 

[noee]

From CBS/AP:

"A third weapon, a .223-caliber rifle, was found in the car, and more guns were found inside the school."

If he went in and never came out, how did he use the .223? Was there another one?

 

[ptschram]

Just as a reminder how the 2nd actually is written: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arm shall not be infringed.

This right already has been infringed and now it is starting to be considered a privilege by some.

Although a very tired cliche, it still is true: guns don't kill, people do.

I am a proud member of the Indiana Militia.

Few are aware, but per the Indiana Constitution all state citizens over the age of 17 are de facto members of the Indiana Militia.

I am well regulated by having been fingerprinted and vetted before having my lifetime handgun license issued to me.

 

[Axel]

Some children have to worry about being asked "short-sleeves" or "long-sleeves". Some children have to worry they will be killed for trying to go to school. Some children have to worry that if accosted by a policeman if they answer in the wrong language, they will be killed. Some have to worry that if they admit to one form of religion versus another, they risk being killed. Yet others have to worry that one of their parents will kill them to maintain the pride and honor of the family

Some children grow up never having set foot in a school, but they learn something useful-survival skills.

This is all very true.

I am also not ready to buy into the idea that school shootings are a new phenomenon, and that there is a quick fix such as more gun control and less violent video games. School shootings have been happening in the US since before there were a US. The first recorded incident was in 1754, and there were quite a few throughout the 1800's and 1900's. Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States

That said, each one is a tragedy - and we as a society have a responsibility to do what we can to prevent such a tragedy from happening again. But I don't think there is a quick fix.

Talking about gun control - while it is an important topic, shifts focus in the wrong direction. Stricter gun control would not have prevented this latest tragedy in my opinion. A determined killer will get hold of weapons anyway. Norway's gun control laws are among the most restrictive in the world, and they did not prevent Anders Behring Breivik from procuring the guns he used to kill 69 and injure 110 at the Ut?ya youth camp on July 22, 2011.

I think the poster who mentioned the media earlier might have a piece of the puzzle, the wide coverage each time one of these tragedies happen might put an idea in someones deranged mind. However, restricting press coverage isn't the answer, either. That would put us on a very slippery slope.

I don't know what the solution is, but I think it is important to realize that even though the media gives us the impression that school shootings is something that started with Columbine (or for those with long memories, the 1966 University of Texas shootings) they have been happening for a lot longer than that, and thus it is important to look deeper, and not just jump on a quick fix.

 

[noee]

How 'bout: "There is no solution."

We're humans, just another animal on this orb, albeit with some serious neural capability, constantly changing and evolving. It is the The Way. Western-style thinking bubbles up with questions of "How do we fix it?", "What's the solution?", the drumbeat of Problem->Reaction->Solution continues....

The universe is violent, the world around us is violent, we are violent. Insane, crazy, warped, whatever, innate or "nurtured", there is no solution.

 

[ptschram]

How 'bout: "There is no solution."

We're humans, just another animal on this orb, albeit with some serious neural capability, constantly changing and evolving. It is the The Way. Western-style thinking bubbles up with questions of "How do we fix it?", "What's the solution?", the drumbeat of Problem->Reaction->Solution continues....

The universe is violent, the world around us is violent, we are violent. Insane, crazy, warped, whatever, innate or "nurtured", there is no solution.

Too many forget that "no one here gets out alive".

Axel-once again, you have proven the great value to America of immigration. Thanx again for being a good, informed, intelligent American.

 

[bri]

I think we should hold the gun owners accountable. If they gave someone the combo to the gun safe or left the gun on the table, then they have committed the crime.
Same as if a bar tender lets someone drink to the point and kills someone on the way home.

Seriously?

 

[varova87]

Why? You need an invisible sky faery to determine what life is worth?

Well, no. Not exactly. Albeit, the way I choose to view the sanctity of life is based on my faith in a God.

For me, justice and the sanctity of life are based on morality. I need the morality to which I subscribe to have originated from some sort of higher authority. If I don't, why would I obey it, or pay any attention to it? If not God, who came up with morals? At what point in those billions of evolutionary years did someone determine that a human life is worth more than that of an insect, or the animals we hunt? And, can morals, thus the sanctity of life, and justice, change? If so, who changes them?

I'm just thinking out loud loud here, trying to explain why I can't separate a discussion involving justice and the sanctity of human life from some sort of higher authority or power, which I find in a God.

 

[d1driver]

Mike - I believe you missed my point about the sheepdog comment. Sorry about that. Yes, there were plenty of sheepdogs in that school that day. Although badly disadvantaged, they did what they could and were successful. At all costs.

None of us will likely come up with a real solution to the problem. Since 911 occurred, we spend $millions to keep bad people off of planes with the security at the airports and having marshalls in the air. Now, what are we going to do with the schools? Especially with school budgets not being able to afford any kind of security.

 

[bri]

First of all I would like to say this is a tragedy, and while I don't have some solution I do believe there has been a drastic cultural shift over the past twenty years, resulting in a population that has become alarmingly desensitized to violence and the value of human life. Before we, as a society, begin to compare our culture to those of other nations with access to the same media/games/what ever, need to realize that we ARE different from others.



I am sorry but 99.9% of the people I know that have a concealed carry permit have never been to a two-way shooting range, nor do I trust their ability to act appropriately to protect innocent life in a safe and prudent manner. The government spent obscene amounts of money training me to hit my target with any number of firearms, even to train others to do the same. The first time I found myself on the business end of a muzzle, I fell back on hundreds of thousands of rounds of training and drills, and I still had a difficult time dropping my target. After a few days of it I got used to the feeling of rounds coming at me while shooting, and I learned to make hits as I was trained before. It is a TOTALLY different world from shooting hanging pieces of paper, I can assure you of this. I can also assure you that a culture with guns in every home that thrives on as much hate, arrogance, and self riotousness as ours, is a very scary place to live.



Gun control does not disarm law abiding citizens, it controls the types of weapons that are introduced into the unknowns of the open market. Yes criminals will acquire arms through illegal means, but those weapons were purchased "legally" at one point in their life... so someone out there was breaking the law. Just because the majority of gun sales are done in a legal fashion to legal owners doesn't mean shit one if there is that one guy doing straw sales. If the privilege to own firearms is contingent on me keeping written records that are spot-inspectable by the BATFE agents, or having a simple background check by the FBI and local law enforcement before I can buy certain arms, then so be it, I have nothing to hide, and I have nothing to worry about. If we lifted all control on gun purchases/ownership do you honestly believe that those who intend on doing harm to others will somehow stop obtaining arms? If you allowed every person who desired, to carry a loaded concealed handgun, do you honestly believe that violence and crime would cease? Do you realize that those who use firearms for violent crime typically do not fear a "well armed population" as many have no fear of death?



It is not simply a magazine fed semi-auto rifle, it is a rifle specifically designed to be an efficient and effective killing weapon. Make no mistake sir, Eugene Stoner designed the AR platform to kill, not to hunt game, not to punch paper, not even to look cool on your favorite forum dressed up with your newest tacticool gear... he designed it TO KILL. He designed to put large quantities of well-aimed fire onto target at ranges between 5 and 600m; <5m, time to fix bayonets. He designed it with an easily changed, large capacity magazine, to ensure the user has plenty of rounds in reserve to engage multiple targets quickly. The round was chosen for its inherent accuracy, kill probability, but most of all because you could stuff more of them in a smaller magazine. This was so the the average soldier/Marine could carry more rounds with less weight, making sure he could put more rounds on target with less fatigue. How is that not an "assault rifle?"



The PEOPLE in this country need to teach responsibility and morality to their children, and as a community ensure each child is held to high standards within the greater society. Stating that getting "back to God" will somehow fix the problems at hand is a feeble attempt at demonizing those who choose not to believe in Judeo-Christian rhetoric. As if those who do not follow the teachings of religious institutions are the only ones who do evil to others, despite history's lessons on the contrary. I have witnessed atrocious acts done in the name of religion. Please understand that I am not attacking anyones choice to follow their own path, I am simply saying that the last thing this republic needs is to force faith onto the population; thus removing choice. Let us not forget there are a number of other amendments beyond 2nd that some are so quick to toss around.



...and my thoughts go to the families effected in the area, and those who now question the security of their children throughout the nation. I also hope the morons on the news and politicians don't take away from their situation to move towards their conservative, or liberal, agenda.

There is gun control. Connecticut has plenty of it.

"In 2011, Connecticut was rated the fifth toughest by the pro-gun control Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence on a scorecard which gave points for each restriction the group favors.

But the state scored only 58 points out of a possible 100, below the 81 points of top state California but far ahead of most other U.S. states. Thirty-one states didn’t even score in the double digits.

To buy a gun, Connecticut law requires residents apply for a local permit, typically with the town’s police chief, have their fingerprints taken and submit to a state and federal background check with a 14-day waiting period. To buy a handgun, residents also are required to take a gun safety course.

The state is also one of seven to have an assault weapons ban that specifically lists more than 35 semiautomatic and automatic weapons. It does not appear to cover the .223 caliber rifle used in Friday’s attack."​

So, how would banning any particular type of gun, requiring some background check, waiting period or other type of control help eliminate school massacre's like this? The dude stole his mom's guns, he didn't go buy them. And he did not take the 223 into the school.

Other than target shooting could you tell me another purpose of a firearm? A small handgun will kill you just as dead as an AR.

If there is some statistic about violent crimes that is specifically related to an AR I'd like to read it.

 

[seventyfive]

Why? You need an invisible sky faery to determine what life is worth?

Walter, this is a great example of our current state. Why in the world would you, unprovoked no less, belittle someone's faith? Why has it become acceptable in our society to belittle one's faith?
Especially in a nation and society that was created with the faith of christiananity in mind. It's on our money, we used to pledge allegiance under god, and men and women swear to uphold the constitution under god.

I believe god does not want me to blow up abortion clinics, persecute those who don't believe, build a compound to store weapons and food all in attempts to overthrow the govt, etc, etc....those actions are usually performed by those who I would call radicals. Walter, when have I ever cornered you or anyone and started reciting scripture? My faith in god dictates how I treat others. Yes I bust balls and run my mouth, but I have ALWAYS lent a hand to others, I try my hardest to treat others how I would want them to treat me.
Yes there are those who use religion for nothing less than a reasoning for their own personal agenda, which are the ones that give folks a reason to bash religion. That is the same for almost everything. Anyone can use anything as a basis for their agenda, just like the NRA uses the second amendment.
Religion is unfortunately the scape goat many lunatics use, because we like to read and interpret things as we seem fitting. Yes there are way too many people using religion for wrong reasons but to belittle ALL of us because of the ones that are fucking idiots is no different than saying someone like Trevor Combs is a nigger because all black people are the same.

This is somewhat part of the problem, we no longer respect the beliefs and values of others. It's all about MY rights, MY beliefs. The ability to live amongst others, respect one another's values wether we agree or disagree, just basic human decency is getting lost. My religion has instilled in me the value of human life, yes you don't need religion to come to that belief, but I believe whoever or whatever you use to base your value of human life on should never be belittled.

 

[seventyfive]

How 'bout: "There is no solution."

We're humans, just another animal on this orb, albeit with some serious neural capability, constantly changing and evolving. It is the The Way. Western-style thinking bubbles up with questions of "How do we fix it?", "What's the solution?", the drumbeat of Problem->Reaction->Solution continues....

The universe is violent, the world around us is violent, we are violent. Insane, crazy, warped, whatever, innate or "nurtured", there is no solution.

This is a very good point. Fixing something tangible is almost old news these days, but when it comes to the intangible we bang our heads on the wall. How do you fix human nature? Mike your constant positivity is as always, uplifting!:bigok:
Understand, you are doing the right thing. You and Connie are providing an unbelievable environment for Waylan to grow and learn, he has two parents that are very open minded, caring, and loving. At the end of the day that is about all we can do to make the world a better place, start at home.

 

[bri]

The first thing we should do is stop glorifying these killers and demonizing what their tool is to achieve the killing. If this guy would have hacked them with a chainsaw what would be do?

The media is quite a gem in this case.

But he apparently chose a larger weapon, a .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle. This rifle fires one bullet for every pull of the trigger and sends a slug out at an unusually high speed. Authorities said Lanza fired dozens and dozens of times in a spree that lasted minutes.

“All the wounds that I know of at this point were caused by the long rifle,” Carver said.

Law enforcement sources said the Bushmaster was recovered in the car, but state police spokesman Lt. J. Paul Vance denied that assertion at a news conference, the Los Angeles Times reported.​

So was it a slug a 223 or a LR? Where was the rifle, really? Does the bushmaster really fire a 223 faster than any other firearm?

What a crock.

 

[bri]

Bri, I really do see your point - I promise I'd do! I think you may be missing some points here.

You are right - there are nut jobs, crazies, and wackos in society. There always has been and there always will be. We need to find out what has changed that is making them more and more effective in acting out, what is triggering their actions. It's something. Something new is pulling their trigger. What happened in CT makes Manson look like Mr. Rodgers. Crazy people aren't getting more crazy. They are getting more effective at being crazy.

Anything can trigger a whack job and it's nothing new, the biggest trigger is that they know they will be famous. There are more of them due in part to just increased population and more of them are out their running among us since we no longer pay attention to the signs or even recognize them.