P1884 Code ?

[R_Lefebvre]

If I need to replace the MAF, should I get a new one from AB for $265, or a used one locally for $95? Seems from reading these things go pretty often, and that a used one shouldn't be worth much at all?

I'm going to try a few things first before I go for that. A lot of the treads on P0102 seems that sometimes it's other things causing the problem.

So far I have confirmed that it is getting 12V and 5V reference voltage from the CPU, at the MAF plug, so doesn't seem to be a harness issue. Next I want to try and measure a voltage that the MAF is sending back. If it's zero, it's obvious the thing is dead. If it's not zero, maybe it just needs to be cleaned.

 

[flyfisher11]

If I need to replace the MAF, should I get a new one from AB for $265, or a used one locally for $95? Seems from reading these things go pretty often, and that a used one shouldn't be worth much at all?

I'm going to try a few things first before I go for that. A lot of the treads on P0102 seems that sometimes it's other things causing the problem.

So far I have confirmed that it is getting 12V and 5V reference voltage from the CPU, at the MAF plug, so doesn't seem to be a harness issue. Next I want to try and measure a voltage that the MAF is sending back. If it's zero, it's obvious the thing is dead. If it's not zero, maybe it just needs to be cleaned.

Do you know anyone locally with a DII (your year range '03 and '04 are diffent)? If so borrow their MAF and confirm. If not and you decide to buy a new one, buy from Will T. Much better price than dealer or AB etc...

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I might know somebody, not sure if they'd trust me enough to "take their truck apart." But yeah, I'll check with Will if I do buy one.

Can I keep driving the truck if it feels fine? It drives perfect, maybe just a slight roughness, but maybe that's just me fooling myself. There's certainly nothing major wrong. I just don't think I can get this sorted by the weekend, and I was planning on doing about 600 miles.

I'm not sure if it's still running on the MAF, or if it's ignoring it because of this. It does seem to be entering closed loop, which I don't know if it would do if it was running on pure throttle position.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

I might know somebody, not sure if they'd trust me enough to "take their truck apart." But yeah, I'll check with Will if I do buy one.

Can I keep driving the truck if it feels fine? It drives perfect, maybe just a slight roughness, but maybe that's just me fooling myself. There's certainly nothing major wrong. I just don't think I can get this sorted by the weekend, and I was planning on doing about 600 miles.

I'm not sure if it's still running on the MAF, or if it's ignoring it because of this. It does seem to be entering closed loop, which I don't know if it would do if it was running on pure throttle position.

come on man your suposed to be a expert on fuel injection:rofl:

forget that it is fuel injected for a moment...how would you confirm it is safe to drive without damage?

























































thats right...go pull the spark plugs and read them with your eyes not a OBDII scanner.

bottom line is the only way it would damage anything is if it was so lean that it burns a piston or valve or if it was so rich that it flodded the cats and ruined them.

if the spark plugs look good/ within range then you should have no issues driving it 600 miles.

good luck and keep us posted

Thom

 

[helievacpilot]

May not help, but I would try cleaning the MAF connector and also clean the MAF itself with CRC MAF Cleaner. I was not throwing any codes, but it smoothed out the engines of both of my 99 D2's.
Good Luck - Bill

 

[R_Lefebvre]

thats right...go pull the spark plugs and read them with your eyes not a OBDII scanner.

That's a black art to me. I've never had good luck with that. Besides, pulling the plugs pretty much only confirms how it's running at the condition to which you shut it down. So, idle in this case. It could be doing anything at cruising speed, or full throttle. I've done that stuff with my bike, go full speed, pull in the clutch and shut it down, stop, pull the plug. A little harder to do with a truck. The problem with fuel injection, is it can run on throttle position, and do so pretty good at idle or low speed. The plugs may look fine. At high speeds and loads, it could be way off.

The best thing to do is to pull the wideband O2 sensor from my other car, and actually find out the ratio it's running for real.

The other thing I'd do if I had full control, is actually look at the ECU and see what it's seeing on the MAF sensor. Can't do that either in this case.

Could it really burn a valve or piston from being lean? Something that gets said a lot, but I've never seen in practice on a 4 stroke. Only on 2 strokes. I have run my Focus at 17 or 18:1 while cruising, the EGT actually goes down, not up. I can lean it out till it stops firing, and it's fine for the engine. Now, running lean at full throttle and detonating, that's a whole other matter, and I think that's what you really mean. I have a good ear for detonation, if it happens on these trucks, can you hear it through all the insulation?

I know EFI, it's just hard to work when you're blind. I'm just asking for some practical experience with these particular trucks because... they're peculiar.

Bill, yep, I'm stopping at the store to get some cleaner on the way home from work.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

yes running to lean under load can burn a piston or a valve for sure and yes I have seen it on a rover. I have a set of heads in the garage that the exhaust valves got smoked because of unmetered air.

cleaning a DII MAF is really a waste...the filament is to small and when they start acting up no amount of cleaning ever seams to help.

If you really think its the MAF its time to replace it, but I think a com error would be more likely to be corosion based because com errors are normally picked up during the initial check the ECU goes through at start up.

maybe the corosion is from the "countless water crossings" you have done.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

also not sure where you get the part that reading spark plugs only shows what the engine was doing at shut down?

thats just not the case.

 

[helievacpilot]

MUSKYMAN. Have to disagree with you to a point on cleaning the MAF. Being new to LR's when I bought my wife's D2, I immediately installed the K&N air filter. Against the subsequent research I did, I decided to leave it in. Sure enough, about a year down the road, it started bucking and kicking quite badly on acceleration from low speeds. I got rid of the K&N, cleaned the MAF and it ran good as new. I decided to clean the MAF on mine as well and noticed that it definitely ran a little smoother than before. Your right, there comes a point where cleaning them will not help a bit, but it might be worth the price of a can of MAF cleaner just in case.
- Bill

 

[R_Lefebvre]

yes running to lean under load can burn a piston or a valve for sure and yes I have seen it on a rover. I have a set of heads in the garage that the exhaust valves got smoked because of unmetered air.

Not arguing, just asking: Was it because it was it was lean, or was it because it detonated because it was too lean? Detonation can burn the metal surfaces even if the percusive force is not enough to fracture them. That is because the detonation wave breaks up a boundary layer of cooler air/gas that normally provides some insulation against the full heat of combustion.

If you really think its the MAF its time to replace it, but I think a com error would be more likely to be corosion based because com errors are normally picked up during the initial check the ECU goes through at start up.

That's what I'm hoping. Rave only shows two connectors on the system, I'm assuming that's right, though it is surprising. There's no connector between the chassis harness and the engine harness? I know the one at the ECU is clean and dry, not sure if there's any point cleaning it. The one at the MAF, well it's filthy outside, but the pins look fine. Still, the MAF is in a dirty place, the fan throws water all over it on water crossings. Might have found it's way in.

also not sure where you get the part that reading spark plugs only shows what the engine was doing at shut down?

thats just not the case.

That's why my old man taught me, and I've just never learned anything different. It's just not something that's done since the advent of fuel injection and oxygen sensors. With a cheap simple narrowband gauge hooked to the factory O2, you can see if it's dithering around stoich at cruise, and know that you're fine. The problem is at WOT, it needs to go rich, and the narrowband 02 can't read that, so neither can the ECU, that's when it uses the MAF. With a wideband, you can see *exactly* what the A/F is, every second, instantly. I'd pull it off my other car, but that would take a few hours and seems secondary to finding root cause here.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

my comment about the plugs wasent about sorting out the root issue...it was about being able to drive the truck without damage.

and yes detonation is what kills them and a lean burn often becomes detonation under load, thats why i said under load.

if the truck were to be lean or have a few lean cylinders you would be able to see it on the plugs. Its actually very evident when you look at them. I have found a number of run and misfire issues on DII related to the fuel injectors by just pulling the plugs.

sure taking a stand alone 02 sensor is a great way to see what its running at but you know if you realy want to sort this out you need a testbook to watch all the values in real time....sad but true

 

[MUSKYMAN]

MUSKYMAN. Have to disagree with you to a point on cleaning the MAF. Being new to LR's when I bought my wife's D2, I immediately installed the K&N air filter. Against the subsequent research I did, I decided to leave it in. Sure enough, about a year down the road, it started bucking and kicking quite badly on acceleration from low speeds. I got rid of the K&N, cleaned the MAF and it ran good as new. I decided to clean the MAF on mine as well and noticed that it definitely ran a little smoother than before. Your right, there comes a point where cleaning them will not help a bit, but it might be worth the price of a can of MAF cleaner just in case.
- Bill

disagree all you like I have tried to clean a buncha DII MAF's over the years and they run better for a few days or a weak but then the same tell tale codes come back and it takes a new MAF to keep them away for good.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

sure taking a stand alone 02 sensor is a great way to see what its running at but you know if you realy want to sort this out you need a testbook to watch all the values in real time....sad but true

Yep, for sure. That's why I just went with a stand alone for my track car. $2000, full control, full view, do away with the troublesome MAF... But not a year later and there were applications released that give FULL visibility and control over Ford's EEC IV systems for only about $600 or something. Too bad we don't have that for Rovers. And would still be stuck with a MAF anyway. Stand alone systems you can go speed density with a MAP sensor that's way less problematic. Anyway.

 

[jhmover]

Here's what I got from All Experts.

I'm certainly not an expert like some on here, but when I had my old D2 I can remember one time I was getting all kinds of weird crap about every part on it, it turned out to be the MAF. Were it me I'd get a can of MAF cleaner and try it out, it's cheap and doesn't take long, or get a known good MAF and see if the codes go away.

Heres what Al Experts said about that code.

There are more factory defect codes fits for the P1884 OBDII code.
These are:

P1884
* CAN message:
Engine friction invalid
No apparent effect.

P1884
* CAN message:
Throttle position invalid
Substitute throttle angle of 50% adopted. No
kickdown. Operates in economy modes only.

P1884
CAN message: Engine
temperature invalid
Substitute engine temperature derived from
other inputs. No apparent effect.

P1884
CAN message: Road
speed invalid
No apparent effect

P1884
* CAN message:
Engine torque invalid
Substitute engine torque of derived from other
inputs. May affect shift quality.

P1884
* CAN message:
Engine speed invalid
Maintains current gear in low range, limp
home mode in high range. Shift pressure to
maximum, harsh gear shifts/engagement.

P1884
CAN message: Engine
air intake temperature
invalid
No apparent effect. On Off

P1844
Altitude shift control
invalid
No reduced torque compensation, possible
reduction in performance/ driveability at
altitude or high ambient temperatures.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Ok, tried getting MAF cleaner, no luck. These are times I hate living in a small town. I'll have to try a UAP during business hours.

So far, I have programmed the ScanGauge to read the O2 sensor feedback, and the short and long term fuel trims. Long term fuel trims were in single digits, IIRC, so nothing apparent there. The O2 sensors seemed to be dithering around .5V as they should, but it was happening much slower than I'm used to seeing on Fords. <shrug> The short term fuel trims also appeared to be reacting to the O2, as they should, but again much slower than I'm used to seeing.

So, it seems to be operating normally. I don't think it's rich or lean. And of course, I have NO drivability issues.

So, back to the MAF. Cleaned out the connector with brake cleaner which is a substitute for electrical cleaner. No effect. I removed the MAF, looks pretty good inside, no obvious dirt or water, I gently blew it out with air. Reinstalled, fired it up, no code. Huh. Shut down, fire it up, CEL on! :banghead: So nothing there.

Now the tricky part, to actually measure the signal coming out. Not having expensive needle probes, I had to raid my wife's sewing kit to steel some needles. This has to be done because there's no other way to get the multimeter probes on the wires of a Weatherpack connector. Some people shove them through the wire insulation, but I don't like that, instead I insert them through the rubber grommets like so:

From there, I rechecked the 5V reference voltage, rock solid at 5V while running, and then the actual signal. I'm showing 1.008V at idle. Seems reasonable but... it's hard to figure because the air/V graph for the MAF in Rave seems totally out of whack. It would show this MAF is sized for a jet engine.

Anyway, the meter isn't totally dead, it's working, sort of.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Ok, just played with it a bit more. Seems the gauge is pegged at 1.009. It won't change if I rev the engine. It stays the same with key on engine off. Only drops to 0 when the key is off. So... seems like this thing is cooked. It should be going up and down with engine load, but nope.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

There's some great info here, particularly in some of the links.

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...-cures-they-dont-want-you-know-about-diy.html

These Bosch MAFs are pretty common, basically all the European manufacturers use them. In fact, this exact part number 0 280 218 010 is also used on BMW and Mercedes. I haven't seen it confirmed, but there is some indication that the sensor insert which screwed into the housing is the EXACT same part as countless other Bosch MAF's, only the housings are different. It's possible a cheap repair could be done if one could find a cheaper Bosch part for... say a VW, and just remove the sensor insert and install it into our housing.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

its also the same exact part as a audi as I recall...I payed like $95 for the last one I boaght new.

and that sure beats the $270 most rover places want.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Do you remember which model? I'm going to try to price it locally, see what I can get.

I realized I had some electrical cleaner stashed away in my basement, so I took the sensor apart and cleaned it with that. Figured there's not much chance of damaging it anyway. I also can see the part number on the insert now:

F 00C 2G2 029

Turns out that some of the BMW guys are using the sensor insert from a VW, F 00C 2G2 032, it's cheaper, and the calibration difference is 4%. Normally the computer should be able to compensate for that. I'm a little concerned if the LR computer can since... it was programmed by Brits and has so many other weird issues.

Anyway, I just reinstalled it after cleaning, no go. Still get the CEL, didn't check the voltage, but I'm sure this things done like dinner.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

the DII was pretty much all BMW thats why it was all bosch.

I will look around and see if I have a reciept with the part numbers on it, its been awhile since I bought a DII MAF I got rid of mine about a year ago.

the audi/VW part numbers are shared numbers. I kinda recall it was the first year that audi took the MAF outa the air box and put it into the intake runner from the box to the manifold on a A6 or A4?

the info is somewhere here in the archiev.