P38A Air Spring Bladder Knowledge

[p m]

Yes, it's very difficult. Ever put that same syringe in a vise and cranked it down ?? Cause that's the amount of pressure you'd be looking at with your trucks weight.

Luke, you're talking about stuff you have no idea about. The amount of pressure you're looking when your truck is riding on air springs is between 40 and 80 psi. Not that much at all. I have actually measured it.

There's a reason why professional offroad race/rallye teams use springs. They are a superior design, perform better, last longer and require little to no maintenance.

so are all big rig manufacturers, and, put together, they put in thousands of times more in mileage than all race/rallye teams. Often, in harsher conditions, too.

But I guess you know more than all those professionals...

sarcasm lost entirely.

LOL - are you for real ?? You consider the EAS a "simple piece of electronics" ???
And last time I checked my engine managment system has never failed or left me stranded - but my EAS did, multiple times.

Luke, I could mimic most of the EAS functions with four op amps with coil drivers. This _is_ a very simple piece of electronics. The reason it fails more often is that there's infinitely less money poured into it than into engine management.

Now, this is indeed a meaningless debate. I was ticked off by your suggestion for Andrew to unfold his body topology into something less toroidal, and some other harsh words said in this thread. The EAS _is_ a superior system to coil springs, and swapping it with coils _is_ a cheap bypass - you just have to admit to it.

 

[agro1]

Luke, you're talking about stuff you have no idea about. The amount of pressure you're looking when your truck is riding on air springs is between 40 and 80 psi. Not that much at all. I have actually measured it.

Not when you're wheeling.

so are all big rig manufacturers, and, put together, they put in thousands of times more in mileage than all race/rallye teams. Often, in harsher conditions, too.

Again, big rigs drive at a constant speed on the freeways and interstates. Yeah, really harsh conditions. Last time I checked not too many big rigs on Sidewinder. Did you loose that sarcasm ?

This _is_ a very simple piece of electronics. The reason it fails more often is that there's infinitely less money poured into it than into engine management.

No, the reason it fails is becasue it's a shitty design. If you have the time and money to design a better one stop bitching and do it already and then show us all how much better it is. In the meantime, I'll enjoy the peace of mind I get from coils.

The EAS _is_ a superior system to coil springs, and swapping it with coils _is_ a cheap bypass - you just have to admit to it.

Cheap bypass ? So I guess pulling the ABS fuse on a Disco is a "cheap bypass" too then, right Peter ? Going to coils is is hardly cheap. My setup cost me over $2000 and I could have easily spent more with better shocks.
Or was your reference to "cheap" more a reflection/commentary on the simplicity of coils ?
I'll say it again...Do whatever you like Peter but please don't tell me I don't know waht I'm talking about. If you can design a better system, the do it and shut the fuck up. Becasue currently, the stock Land Rover EAS is a serious liability for anyone using their truck offroad.
I wonder why these guys don't use airsprings Peter ? They have plenty of money to design a better EAS, but yet with all the time and money spent on development, they choose COILS. Over a million bucks, and they still choose "cheap" coils...

 

[p m]

Not when you're wheeling.[/QUUOTE]
okay, Luke, how is it different when you're wheeling? Once again, you have no knowledge of the subject you're doling out advice on. And you're contradicting yourself in process - if you are saying the pressures are higher when you're wheeling (it is as vague statement as it can be; I will take it as "the pressure is higher when the airbag is fully compressed") - that means the progressive rate of the air springs.

Again, big rigs drive at a constant speed on the freeways and interstates. Yeah, really harsh conditions. Last time I checked not too many big rigs on Sidewinder. Did you loose that sarcasm ?

Meaningless statement. Big rigs hit potholes at highway speeds, and airbags live through it. You fail to notice, for instance, Citroen as one of the leading Paris-Dakar competitors for decades - which is using even more sophisticated pneumatic/hydraulic strut design. Don't show me the photos of them up in flames - other shit fails as well.

No, the reason it fails is becasue it's a shitty design. If you have the time and money to design a better one stop bitching and do it already and then show us all how much better it is. In the meantime, I'll enjoy the peace of mind I get from coils.

The only bitching is about you talking smack about something you have no clear idea about.

Cheap bypass ? So I guess pulling the ABS fuse on a Disco is a "cheap bypass" too then, right Peter ?

Absolutely.

Going to coils is is hardly cheap. My setup cost me over $2000 and I could have easily spent more with better shocks.

out of that, springs cost you about $300. The rest is not replacing airbags with coils but dealing with the side effects of that (like the gizmo that extinguishes the light on your dashboard) and shocks, which you could've replaced or left alone with no regard to coils or airbags.

If you can design a better system, the do it and shut the fuck up.

Come on Luke. You can't design a turd outta your own ass, let alone any mechanical stuff. I have multiple lapses in my knowledge, but you aren't qualified to judge them.

ok, over and out on this subject.

 

[agro1]

Your air spring/syringe analogy....
Driving at a constant speed on the highway is exerting a small amount of force on a capped airspring/capped syringe (like trying to compress the syringe with your hands).
Now take that same situation and put an obstacle in front of it. You have to go over the obstacle, compressing the spring/syringe 10 fold. Over, and over and over exerting much more force on the spring/syringe. Yeah, sure Peter....that airspring is gonna fair much better then a good'ole coil - please.

I may not be able to design a better system, but guess what smartguy - YOU are the one claiming the technology is better. So, prove it. Design one or shut the fuck up becasue the overwhelming database of knowledge here on Dweb, in motorsports and everywhere else shows that coils last longer, require far less maintenance and are more reliable.

 

[p m]

Luke, sometimes I think you're just pulling my leg for the heck of it

 

[agro1]

Hey man, we both get a little heated but we've remained (virtual) friends. I have no prob if you wanna run airbags. No skin off my back. You speak with conviction, as do I, but you haven't attacked me for my opinion nor I you so all's good in sunny SD

 

[P38MeMate]

Peter,

I think the EAS is a great suspension system too.

I think also that the ludite is what he is as well. Lets cool it with the swearing tough, OK!

So in the theme of this tread I hope you can get the suspension aired up on your D1 and with the longest air springs you can find. In all my quest to find the longest air spring this is the short falling of my effort. During my time in college I investigated a good many SAE white papers on suspension design and what was required for the likes of an active system which was my first choice in a 2 quarter long senior project design course. Since that was a bit over the top on scope I read alot about what it took to approach the performance characteristics of a fully active suspension system. The key to a great high performance suspension system is a relatively low spring rate and long travel energy absorbing suspension components.

I have heard over the grape vine that the owner of Arnott Ind. is an avid Range Rover owner. I would have had much to convay to him on the redesign of the latest air spring he is offering if he would have entertaind a conversation. But wheel travel and the space enough in getting enough usable wheel travel is the key to ride that can host the most varied types of road and trail conditions. Any idiot like me can put coils on his ride. The hope is that when a long enough air spring is available I will be hooking the EAS back up likety split. In the mean time pushing the P38A's wheel travel to the extends if the 10" travel 5150's is the main thrust of my attention.

With my experience there are several characteristic in the P38A's OEM air spring design which hold important points one needs to consider. The pistons on the lower portion of the spring neck down after about 1.5 to 2 inches of bladder rolling. This manages to taper off the rising rate of the spring some, which if you can position the ride height there it is a good starting point for an initial compliant ride height. However, as the air spring compresses to a fully bottomed out condition the bladder really needs an infinite sized diameter piston to blend into so that the force to continue downward travel effectively spikes to a very high spring rate. Unfortunately this was effectively done away with when I lifted the pistons off the axle and she would therefore, clobber the closed cell foam snubbers quite violently during fast hard pre-running type trail navigation. The axel wrap up on the P38A's carbon fiber radius arms is quite a wopper of a problem and seems to reliably unseat the 406mm long AirBagMan bladders I had put on. My reccomendation with these bladders is to keep the axel travel within the 7-8inch travel range or they might very well be accredited to the hate of the EAS which is so alive in this thread. The other issue is to find some 95 classic aluminum top piston caps as I have a busted plastic front one in my collection. Also stay away from the plastic lower pistons as well they snap quite easily and thus deflate the bladder.

 

[p m]

Andrew,

The only way to get more travel from the same bags is to move them up along the trailing arms - it gets very involved very quickly, and you'd be ahead of the game with coilovers.
In any case, if you stumble upon a longer-travel airbag, please let me know.

FWIW, if I were to hack the EAS, I'd use the mirror joystick assembly to control it. twist the knob to the left and go down; right - and go up; move the joystick around to control each corner independently.

 

[agro1]

Lets cool it with the swearing tough, OK!.

Andrew - this is Dweb man, get used to it.

it has exponentially progressive spring rate - you won't bottom out with airbags.

However, as the air spring compresses to a fully bottomed out condition

See Peter - they CAN bottom out.

You guys crack me up with all this...Have either of you ever done a side by side comparison to prove that an air sprung vehicle PERFORMS better offroad than coils ? that's all I really care about.

 

[p m]

would that make you sleep better -
"you are very unlikely to bottom out the airbags, unless you jump off the top of the cliff"
This is a pointless argument - because coil springs are much more likely to bottom out.

For comparison, our driveway is fairly steep, with a sharp transition to the flat street at the bottom. With airbags, we didn't even think of slowing down going out of, or turning into the driveway. With coils in front, one foot is on the brake. The rear end, which is air-suspended, could not care less.

 

[agro1]

would that make you sleep better -
"you are very unlikely to bottom out the airbags, unless you jump off the top of the cliff"
This is a pointless argument - because coil springs are much more likely to bottom out.

For comparison, our driveway is fairly steep, with a sharp transition to the flat street at the bottom. With airbags, we didn't even think of slowing down going out of, or turning into the driveway. With coils in front, one foot is on the brake. The rear end, which is air-suspended, could not care less.

I mod my Rangie for offroad performance, Peter.

 

[p m]

so you can live with coil springs bottoming out easier than airbags. Makes sense.

 

[agro1]

so you can live with coil springs bottoming out easier than airbags. Makes sense.

No, so I can go anywhere, not have to carry spare airbags and have the peace of mind that if I have a mechanical failure, the probability of it being suspension related will be very low.
Motorsports (in all forms), Peter, is the ability to push your equipment as far as possible while taking great risk - all the while, minimizing said risk as much as possible. To do that, you need equipment that can withstand continued abuse. You clearly do not understand this concept.

 

[p m]

Again, I can't gauge whether you are serious or not. Assuming for a moment that you are -

Where exactly is that hypothetical remote location you've taken your truck, Luke? Bring back the comment about talk being cheap.

You just keep repeating the same shit that's been said on yahoo list years ago. You clearly don't have the technical knowledge, and don't seem to have experience to support any of these statements. You also get into arguments with people without any respect to what do they do for a living - your comment about me not understanding the concept of making my equipment reliable is just ridiculous. But - you aren't paying my bills, fire them away!

 

[agro1]

Becasue I didn't go to sidewinder I've never taken my truck offroad ?
Right.

What you do for a living Peter, doesn't mean shit becasue you clearly have your head up your ass. If an airspring is more reliable than a coil, then why do they fail ? Last time I checked, there weren't too many guys complaining about their steel coils failing. Performance aside, and as "simple" as you think the Land rover EAS is, are you really going to sit there and tell me that the EAS is LESS COMPLICATED than a simple fucking steel coil ???
Answer this one question - Which is a more durable piece of equipment, airspring or coil ?

 

[p m]

What you do for a living Peter, doesn't mean shit becasue you clearly have your head up your ass.

Like I said, Luke, as long as it ain't you who's cutting me a paycheck, I don't have to worry.

 

[agro1]

No, you sure don't. But why not answer the question, Peter ?

 

[Pugsly]

I'm just getting ready to try out my P38, fresh from having it's new bumpers, winch and sliders installed. I am interested to see how the air suspension will handle the added weight and new swaybar disconnects. We also dialed in an extra 10mm of suspension height on the EAS - bet you wish you could do that with slinkies!

When you really start looking at the P38, you find that it is a very capable offroad vehicle - I think we are going to see more and more of them on the trails as the used ones continue to come down in price.

FWIW, I do have the multi-mode M.A.R.S. system and carry a compressor with me, so in the event of a catastrophic fault I can just bypass everything...

 

[agro1]

I'm just getting ready to try out my P38, fresh from having it's new bumpers, winch and sliders installed. I am interested to see how the air suspension will handle the added weight and new swaybar disconnects. We also dialed in an extra 10mm of suspension height on the EAS - bet you wish you could do that with slinkies!

Yeah - whatever:
Expeditionware 1.0" Spring Spacers

When you really start looking at the P38, you find that it is a very capable offroad vehicle - I think we are going to see more and more of them on the trails as the used ones continue to come down in price.

No kidding, really ?? Thanks for the tip, scoop.

Let us know how your EAS deals with the increased weight. I predict it fails within the first month.

 

[p m]

Yeah - whatever: Expeditionware 1.0" Spring Spacers

this one inch comes out of your uptravel.