P38A Air Spring Bladder Knowledge

[P38MeMate]

Well I yanked off the Arnott Industries replacement rear air spring bladders yesterday. I lined them up next to the original OEM Dunlop bladders on the garage floor to find that in a used condition the Arnott bags have taken on a set that is sorter than the OEM Dunlop rubber by about 1/2".

This explains why the rear bags have been letting out air when I off-road the Range Rover over rough terrain. Earlier this year pre-running Calico, CA in March I had major problems keeping the air in the bags. This has gotten worse and worse as the time has passed. Initial contact with Arnott today doesn't sound very good in getting my money back.

So, I am trying out some AirBagMan bladders from Austraila which have on them the Dunlop insignia as well as an additional 1.5 inches of extra length over the original OEM Dunlops when in a brand new uninstalled condition. Initial indications are showing I can drop the suspension limiting straps another inch. But I'm going to wait and see if these too take on a bulge and forsortened overall set length.

Anyone else been here yet with there air springs

 

[agro1]

When I yanked those pieces of crap out of my car for the coil conversion they were in bad shape. Mine were the factory units, and a couple had been leaking for a while causing the compressor to work overtime. Anyway, I highly suggest going to coils. The ride is much improved on road and with the lift I gained using the OME springs, offroad clearance and articulation is even better.
I used the Atlantic British coil kit and am very happy with it.
I used OME 761 (ps) front and OME 781 (ps) rear with Bilstein HD shocks. I got about a 2 inch lift over the factory high EAS setting. Hope this helps.

Luke

http://www.roverparts.com/ProductLi...4&PerPage=1&ListType=DETAIL&PartNumber=9520LB

PS - I didn't buy the (factory) springs that come in that kit and it reduced the price to $520. Then I bought the OME springs elsewhere.

 

[P38MeMate]

Ok agro1, I hope you are the only member here on Disco Web who slams the EAS on the P38A's inside this thread. If you read the work shop manual you'd find the recomended replacement time limit is 10 years for the air spring bladders. I'm not interested in slinkies my friend and I'm offended by your post just a bit, but that is OK. We have to be passionate or we wouldn't be driving Land Rovers.

So, to clarify I want constructive information on EAS enhancing ideas and information on running air springs, not slinkies

Air spring up date is as follows. I installed a pair of AirBagMan bladders last week and the as they are 1.5 inches longer than the rear application OEM Dunlops the rear axel travel is tipping 9-1/2 to 10 inches. I ran Gold Mountain for those of you familiar with Big Bear in Southern California this last Saturday and met with some rather nasty realization. The wimpy Superlift limiting straps I got on-line this last Friday are a bit under par and stretch a lot more than 1 inch when the axels get crossed up. Thus the passenger rear air spring bladder peeled its self from the piston and blew out all of the some 70psi of air twice during the ascent. When this happens the bladder unseats its self from the top cap as well which required removing it from the frame. The bladder 's ends needed to be reformed into a round shape again but hold air just fine once re-seated. So I'll be trading the limiting straps from Superlift for some made by Pro Comp which I have on the front and are a lot more substantial in tensile strength. Lesson learned you get what you pay for.

 

[alia176]

Your shocks must be real long in order for the bags to be over-extended. Have you considered running air springs that are attached at both ends? Just a thought.

Ali

 

[agro1]

Ok agro1, I hope you are the only member here on Disco Web who slams the EAS on the P38A's inside this thread. If you read the work shop manual you'd find the recomended replacement time limit is 10 years for the air spring bladders. I'm not interested in slinkies my friend and I'm offended by your post just a bit, but that is OK. We have to be passionate or we wouldn't be driving Land Rovers.

Andrew - Pull your head out of your ass my friend. It's a very well kown fact that the Range Rover EAS is THE limiting factor to it's offroad capabilities. Not becasue it does not perform well, but because IT FAILS. When the EAS works, it's "ok" at best...But, it WILL eventually fail. My car is 6 years old and then airbags were already leaking, so you shouldn't trust everything you read in the workshop manual. Do a little research and you will find that many others on DiscoWeb share my feelings about Land Rover EAS.
Furthermore, you wouldn't have had that problem at Big Bear if you had "slinkies". But hey, I guess I'm just not a very passionate guy

 

[sven]

I watched my mechanic friend try to install the Arnott bags on a classic RR. The arnotts look soo much different in shape compared to new genuine ones. He ended up convincing the owner to use genuine instead because he felt that the arnotts would be unreliable.
BTW, the bags were replaced on a stock, mint, always garaged LWB...I would recommend coils on any vehicle driven offroad as mentioned by everybody else!
Arnotts "are not" recommended...Get it?

 

[P38MeMate]

Dear Luke,

My head is fine just were it is. I am baffled to understand your distain for my passion. But that is ok too. I like you just the same and what is more you drive a Land Rover like me. If you don't like that well I don't know what to tell you. Now, I would have much rather made this a private matter but you are not allowing personal emails in your profile. Your words are hurtfull my friend although I have to be tentative in using the word friend. Bulletin boards are funny in this way. You know what my prayer is for you? That I happen to be the chap who lends a helping hand to you as you find your RR stricken on the stretch of freeway between San Diego and Orange County. Remember your very next minute could be your last on the face of this place we call earth. Make it count, every minute of it!

Andrew

 

[P38MeMate]

You Disco Web Guys are hard to convince and tough minded and I respect that mind set. I am perhaps foolish in chasing after the ultimate air sprung suspension. But you know what, there isn't any one else doing this. I like a challenge.

Sven,
A brand new Land Rover air bag no matter what make it is is always very differnt from an installed one. You know how a latex ballon once first inflated doesn't return to its pre inflated form. Well the air spring bladders do the same thing. The information I am trying to let everyone in on is that the Arnott bags behave differntly from the material which Dunlop uses. The OEM bags are made by Dunlop the AirBagMan bladders I am messing around with are made by Dunlop too. When you first get your hands on one of these your first impression is that there is no way its going to fit. Most auto mechanics haven't educated them selves about air springs because at this time they are not completely main stream. Air suspension is the future you just wait and see.

Ali,
Running air springs and trying to use them as the travel limiting device is asking for trouble. I just don't think the elastomer has the strength to handle the air pressure from with in and the tug from the axel when it is hanging from the frame. However, Chris over in the UAE was running such a bag which he ruptured. He litterally ripped the bag open which was enough for him to make the swap to slinkies. I believe the international designated Range Rovers not NAS use a differnt air spring design were the bladder is swedged onto the cap and piston with a retension band of perhaps aluminum. The NAS bladders are a bead and rim type deal and I have been plagued with air escaping from the bladders in part because I am running 10" travel shocks. And the limiting straps have not been as rugged as they advertise. Its just part of the learning curve as no one else has done this level of modification to the P38A that I'm aware of.

If you out there share the wealth its lonely out here.

 

[agro1]

Dear Luke,
My head is fine just were it is. I am baffled to understand your distain for my passion. But that is ok too. I like you just the same and what is more you drive a Land Rover like me. If you don't like that well I don't know what to tell you. Now, I would have much rather made this a private matter but you are not allowing personal emails in your profile. Your words are hurtfull my friend although I have to be tentative in using the word friend. Bulletin boards are funny in this way. You know what my prayer is for you? That I happen to be the chap who lends a helping hand to you as you find your RR stricken on the stretch of freeway between San Diego and Orange County. Remember your very next minute could be your last on the face of this place we call earth. Make it count, every minute of it!
Andrew

Andrew - I applaud your passion for trying to find the perfect air sprung suspension and I have no disdain for you whatsoever. But seriously, there have been many many many discussions about what JUNK the Rover EAS is. I'm not the only one that feels that way. If you can find an airbag that lasts, be my guest.
But airbags have inherent flaws that you would never experience with coils. They wear out, they leak, they balloon (as you mentioned), they have pressure switches, thermal sensors, ride height sensors - ALL THINGS THAT FAIL. You have none of these problems when you convert to a coil sprung suspension.
Please don't take my response as being hateful, Andrew - I am only presenting you with the facts. I have had both, Air and now coils, and I can tell you that coils are much better in every regard. You can either choose to accept the facts, or continue with your current futile search for an air suspension that will never be reliable. Good luck to you

 

[t77911s]

Andrew, I appluad yor desire to continue with the EAS on your P38. I loved the EAS on my classic, while it was working, but at the last failure I just decided to go to Bilsteins and Coil Springs. I love the current configuration, but I do miss the EAS. Unlike the classic, the P38 was deigned for EAS, and you should be commended for keeping it up. There are alot of opinions out there (like mine) and you just have to ignore the negatives. It is your truck, so do with it what you please. The EAS will fail at some point, just like a water pump, starter, alternator, etc etc. I would recomend buying OEM springs, and the software for your laptop so you can troubleshoot yourself. It will eventually pay for itself. Good luck, and stay positive....ignore the negative's out there!

 

[agro1]

The EAS will fail at some point, just like a water pump, starter, alternator, etc etc.

Get real man. The point you are missing is the FAILURE RATE. The OEM air springs have a much higher failure rate than major mechanical components like water pumps, starters, alternators, etc. Why continue throwing money at something that is just going to continue to fail ?? Ok you can change the air springs and they will be ok, but for how long ?? What's next, the compressor, a pressure switch, thermal sensor, ride height sensor, air fitting, NPT line ?? Have fun out on the trail when one of these crappy gizmos fails and leaves you stranded on your bump stops and you have to spend a couple days and a few thousand bucks to get your truck back to the pavement...

I'd like for you guys to tell me how the factory EAS is better than coil ?? You say you love it, but WHY ???

 

[agro1]

Since you guys like the EAS so much, I have the entire system sitting in a box in my garage, air bags, compressor and all. Anyone want to buy it ?

 

[t77911s]

AGRO, Whats the problem? I am not saying EAS is better than coils, or coils are better than EAS. I've had both, and like both. I like EAS period. No justification needed. Apparently Andrew does too. Why do you care what I like? And what does it matter to you if some people like EAS. Andrew opened this thread wanting to know support info regarding EAS, not which was better, and certainly not to hear your opinions on EAS.

Why don't you open a thread for EAS vs Coil Springs, and you can debate all you want, but I don't think your opinions are appropriate here...

Its not your truck and its not your money.

Andrew - Don't give up on your EAS...

tim

 

[agro1]

Tim - Agreed, I just thought Andrew would like to know he's fighting a battle he'll never win and one that will end up leaving him stranded in the middle of nowhere. But hey, if that's what it takes to change someone's mind - so be it.

 

[agro1]

Tim - It's AGro, but you can call me Luke

 

[P38MeMate]

Well, this thread is scooped what a waste of time. See you Disco Web much much later.
So Long,
P38MeMate.

 

[agro1]

Geeezz Andrew, so sorry to see ya go

 

[Freeloder]

What a bunch of insecure idiots. Just because you can't get your EAS to work doesn?t mean you have to ridicule someone who has more creativity in his little finger than all of you combined. Andrew Parker is "one of the pioneering 4.0/4.6 owners? His modifications to the P38 are of legendary proportion. His insight into the P38 is better than the engineers who came up with it. Y'all should feel ashamed for pushing that much knowledge out of this forum. If you don?t believe my words just check out rangerovers.net and see for yourselves. He is all over the place.

 

[Freeloder]

By the way Andrew have you tried the Arnott 3rd gen springs yet? Have heard anything about them? How was their service since last year? I wanted an honest opinion on a site other than one they sponsor.

 

[ptschram]

I'll weigh in as I have much experience with repairing P38 EAS. Some successful, some not so.

P38 Mate-if you wish to retain the functionality of the EAS, there is one single step that will go further to insuring the longevity of your system than any other. Remove the Valve Block Driver from the housing with the air compressor. The heat that builds up inside the enclosure will cook the driver transistors and then you're pretty well screwed. Fortunately, on the P38s, vs. the Classics, the valve block driver has connectors that go between the controller and the valve block/solenoids. Make a harness that extends the wires and mount the valve block driver somewhere that it will get additional airflow, or at least allow it to dissipate what heat it generates. The driver assembly is potted so there MAY be some water-ingress resistance, but I'm not gonna say it is water-proof.

Our experience has shown that the inlet valve driver transistor gets cooked and can manifest itself in a coupla different ways, such as an error code that the inlet valve is permanently closed or open. It has been surmised that since the inlet valve is used everytime any of the individual bladders is inflated, it may generate significant heat itself and due to its heavier duty cycle, it is more prone to failure.

If you're gonna keep the EAS, might as well do what you can to protect the electronic componenents as well as the pneumatic.

Peace,
PT