Its not ignorant at all its my observation with outdoor gear made in China. What I have had does cut my cheese. There is more of it now too, and I have noticed the decline in quality over the years. With some companys you can notice the improvement of gear as they get it down, REI is an example of this, their China made products are improving. I believe that the materials made in China happen to be very good. The craftsmanship is subpar.
Premium Brands Now Made In China ???
- Thread starter JeffM
- Start date
S
syoung
Guest
the workmanship will be ssubpar until they pay up for the better workmanship... that would do one of two things: cut into profit or require raising prices to pocket the same amount.
REI is already horridly overpriced, so raising prices- well, they already did and people still buy their crap. Give up profits? That's just not the American way...
Chinese factories CAN pump out anything as well as any other country and better than the vast majority. As stated earlier though- their specialty is cheap crap.
REI is already horridly overpriced, so raising prices- well, they already did and people still buy their crap. Give up profits? That's just not the American way...
Chinese factories CAN pump out anything as well as any other country and better than the vast majority. As stated earlier though- their specialty is cheap crap.
Cheap crap for the Walmart mentality.....
TNF used to be good quality and was made in China, then TNF was sold to some big conglomerate that also makes the low end Columbia brand.
As in computers, GIGO...
Quality has gone down & prices up..
BTW my Compaq Presario laptop was shipped to me from Shanghai, go figure.
James,
I'll stay with my carbon fiber interior upgrade...a G. Loomis fishing rod (made in the USA).....
TNF used to be good quality and was made in China, then TNF was sold to some big conglomerate that also makes the low end Columbia brand.
As in computers, GIGO...
Quality has gone down & prices up..
BTW my Compaq Presario laptop was shipped to me from Shanghai, go figure.
James,
I'll stay with my carbon fiber interior upgrade...a G. Loomis fishing rod (made in the USA).....
I disagree that REI is overpriced. They are cheap in many areas and the retailers typically do not set the prices. They do not carry any more leading edge stuff. The amount of Marmot, Cloudveil and Arcteryx stuff is very very limited. Even at the Denver flagship store.
For example:
Bibler Ahwahnee 2 Tent
Checked about 4 places online all $649, including REI.
Arc'Teryx Gamma MX Pants.
REI 250, others 240, 249.95,
Don't forget the 10% refund at the end of the year and that I typically buy from them on sales and with coupons only.
Places like Sierra Trading post are good deals, if you know what you want and can find something, but typically the shit I want ain't there.
Brian
For example:
Bibler Ahwahnee 2 Tent
Checked about 4 places online all $649, including REI.
Arc'Teryx Gamma MX Pants.
REI 250, others 240, 249.95,
Don't forget the 10% refund at the end of the year and that I typically buy from them on sales and with coupons only.
Places like Sierra Trading post are good deals, if you know what you want and can find something, but typically the shit I want ain't there.
Brian
L
LMRW
Guest
i just got back from thailand. its the fourth time i have been there and visited other parts of south east asia as well. i always go there with what iam wearing and return home with four full bags of goods. cloths, shirts , back packs.. you name it. i pay 20-30 cad tops for quality taged north face back packs. theses are originals! 5.00-8.00 cad for any tee shirt. fox, billabong, oakley, rip curl, all original shirts for export market. diesel jeans cost 150.00 - 200.00 bucks here i pay 18 dolllars there. i can turn around and sell any of the stuff i get for twice or three times what i paid. i always make the money back! armani, gucci, prada, louis vatton you name it you can get it. custom made tailored suits, three piece and three of them for 99.00 u.s.
dont fool your selfs south east asia is an awesome place. i reccomend the trip to anyone , go experience it hands on.
dont fool your selfs south east asia is an awesome place. i reccomend the trip to anyone , go experience it hands on.
Everyone says they would gladly pay more for a product made in USA,,, and maybe you would. But the vast majority of people turn right around & go to Wal-Mart & buy Chinese-made stuff without even a 2nd tought. People vote w/ their pocketbooks by buying the most inexpensive item they can find. If we stopped importing Chinese-made goods, our prices would, what?, double or triple over night? Then everyone would be complaining because their cost of living would skyrocket.
The comment about unions is dead-on. Just look at GM posting a BILLION dollar loss last quarter. Specialty items aside,,, a shirt or pair of jeans or whatever sewn in China is not inherently of lesser quality than the same item put together anywhere else. Hell, when the U.S. dominated the market in cars, we got pieces of crap & it took the Japanese to raise the overall quality standard. The free market is going to move production to where the cost of production is cheapest. Mess with that & you'll get goods that are really inferior,,,and more expensive.
The comment about unions is dead-on. Just look at GM posting a BILLION dollar loss last quarter. Specialty items aside,,, a shirt or pair of jeans or whatever sewn in China is not inherently of lesser quality than the same item put together anywhere else. Hell, when the U.S. dominated the market in cars, we got pieces of crap & it took the Japanese to raise the overall quality standard. The free market is going to move production to where the cost of production is cheapest. Mess with that & you'll get goods that are really inferior,,,and more expensive.
Don't forget about MARKETING, if your sell an average product and advertised it as a premium product, over a period of time enuf people will believe it is a premium product. Don't forget about PRODUCT ENDORSEMENTS either, a well known and popular personality endorsing a product can increase it's sales eg. Michael Jordan and Nikes etc.
And there's also TARIFFS (hidden taxes) involved, govtmts add tariffs to "help" (political) domestic industries hurt by foreign production.
They all add to the cost of a "premium" product.
We're all suckers because we've been led to believe that we "need" and "want" that expensive premium product.
I'm sounding more like a "Commie" in my old age.
And there's also TARIFFS (hidden taxes) involved, govtmts add tariffs to "help" (political) domestic industries hurt by foreign production.
They all add to the cost of a "premium" product.
We're all suckers because we've been led to believe that we "need" and "want" that expensive premium product.
I'm sounding more like a "Commie" in my old age.
Arc'teryx makes everything in Canada with the exception of a couple of their small packs and gloves. Lifetime guarantee on everything (they replace anything that fails, rather than repair it).
I have managed to collect quite a few of their different garments over the years. Without a doubt, you get what you pay for.The engineering/design and quality is first rate. I used to go through a new snowboard jacket every year (pretty much every name brand jacket TNF/Burton/Dub/Taiga.All would literally start coming apart at the seams from scraping against trees etc, as well as just flapping in the wind from endless hi speed runs in the Whistler alpine). 4 seasons with a Theta AR jacket and not one stitch has come out yet.
The bonus of living in Vancouver is the factory seconds store at the head office. Funny thing with the seconds is that most of the stuff is a second because it has pen marks on it from marking the fabric for where it trims. They can't wash it, cause then it's not "new", so it's sold as a second.
I have managed to collect quite a few of their different garments over the years. Without a doubt, you get what you pay for.The engineering/design and quality is first rate. I used to go through a new snowboard jacket every year (pretty much every name brand jacket TNF/Burton/Dub/Taiga.All would literally start coming apart at the seams from scraping against trees etc, as well as just flapping in the wind from endless hi speed runs in the Whistler alpine). 4 seasons with a Theta AR jacket and not one stitch has come out yet.
The bonus of living in Vancouver is the factory seconds store at the head office. Funny thing with the seconds is that most of the stuff is a second because it has pen marks on it from marking the fabric for where it trims. They can't wash it, cause then it's not "new", so it's sold as a second.
B
Brian...
Guest
Chicken the China...
The problem with anything made anywhere is the quality and attention to detail. Some US made goods are really well made and some are crap which is the smae for items made in Italy, Indonesia, China, Thailand or Japan (although it's getting tough finding something that is completely crap made in Japan), etc. The problem lays in the bean counters and what people really want. The vast majority of society seems to be content with subpar offerings because they are cheap, so therefore that is what they get. It takes an extremely conscious effort to produce a product that is not only of high quality but also somewhat affordable to the masses. Places like China can make quality products but why when the world is content with the mediocrity it produces now. If the demand for higher standards are raised, so will the quality. Also, if the manufacturer really cares about their product they need to watch with an attentive eye to how there products are being produced in the third world/overseas. China and India are notorious for producing quality products initially and then later on down the road swapping out subpar materials or cutting corners to mae their bottom line more attractive.
I remember the day when Timberland made quality products that you could count on in the great outdoors. Wonderful boots that you could beat the living hell out of and they would still be good for another 5 years. The North Face jackets and fleeces used to be spot on for quality and performance. You could feel and see the craftsmanship whenever you slipped on that Gortex shell or bib and plunge down the side of a snow-ladden hill. Lately, it seems like quality across the board has gone down exponentially. I even notice the subtle changes in quality over the years of the Patagonia gear. The quality and craftsmanship of their clothes, jackets and pants has slowly been going down over the past 10 years. Granted that they haven't been sliding down the slope of hell like The North Face, it is noticeable.
You really have to do your research to find a good quality product that won't break your bank. Sometimes you might have to spend a bit more than you wanted to in order to get an item that will last a decent amount of time. I have to agree that Arc'Teryx makes some of the best outdoor gear/wear i have ever seen. Just like Limmer boots.
brian...
www.stlrovr.com
The problem with anything made anywhere is the quality and attention to detail. Some US made goods are really well made and some are crap which is the smae for items made in Italy, Indonesia, China, Thailand or Japan (although it's getting tough finding something that is completely crap made in Japan), etc. The problem lays in the bean counters and what people really want. The vast majority of society seems to be content with subpar offerings because they are cheap, so therefore that is what they get. It takes an extremely conscious effort to produce a product that is not only of high quality but also somewhat affordable to the masses. Places like China can make quality products but why when the world is content with the mediocrity it produces now. If the demand for higher standards are raised, so will the quality. Also, if the manufacturer really cares about their product they need to watch with an attentive eye to how there products are being produced in the third world/overseas. China and India are notorious for producing quality products initially and then later on down the road swapping out subpar materials or cutting corners to mae their bottom line more attractive.
I remember the day when Timberland made quality products that you could count on in the great outdoors. Wonderful boots that you could beat the living hell out of and they would still be good for another 5 years. The North Face jackets and fleeces used to be spot on for quality and performance. You could feel and see the craftsmanship whenever you slipped on that Gortex shell or bib and plunge down the side of a snow-ladden hill. Lately, it seems like quality across the board has gone down exponentially. I even notice the subtle changes in quality over the years of the Patagonia gear. The quality and craftsmanship of their clothes, jackets and pants has slowly been going down over the past 10 years. Granted that they haven't been sliding down the slope of hell like The North Face, it is noticeable.
You really have to do your research to find a good quality product that won't break your bank. Sometimes you might have to spend a bit more than you wanted to in order to get an item that will last a decent amount of time. I have to agree that Arc'Teryx makes some of the best outdoor gear/wear i have ever seen. Just like Limmer boots.
brian...
www.stlrovr.com
It seems that once a brand gets too popular, they get too far into MASS prodction and quality suffers. TNF is a perfect example. I would have to rate their quality mediocre at best.
My philosopy has always been that it's not the cost that matters, but the performance.
It makes more sense to buy a $400 dollar jacket that will last 6 years that to bu a $200 jaket that leaks and has to be replaced every 2 years.
As well, if you are out in the middle of nowhere on a 10 day trek, and your gear fails, it doesn't matter what you did or didn't pay, you are screwed!
My philosopy has always been that it's not the cost that matters, but the performance.
It makes more sense to buy a $400 dollar jacket that will last 6 years that to bu a $200 jaket that leaks and has to be replaced every 2 years.
As well, if you are out in the middle of nowhere on a 10 day trek, and your gear fails, it doesn't matter what you did or didn't pay, you are screwed!
Brian... said:
I think that pretty much says it all. People want cheap shit.
I see our growing trade deficit as being the major problem of production moving to China. The Chinese are capable of producing quality goods but it would be in our interest to keep the premium brand production in the US. It's interesting to me that the Chinese have little respect for our intelectual property yet they have great respect for our brands. Starbucks, Marlboro, Coke, etc. will all do quite well in China.
Econ 101
I understand what you mean. But the economic reality is that the ONLY thing in our best interests is for the US to continue to champion the free movement of capital (after all, who else will?). Specialization of labor will ensure each country produces what they produce best, and most efficiently. As each country specializes labor, these products can then be traded back & forth & everybody wins. In the US, we are increasingly becoming a service-based economy, as was predicted decades ago. We will continue to produce what might be defined as 'intellectual' products & services that are in high demand internationally. We will then trade these goods & services (the money we make from producing them) for more simple production goods that can more efficiently be produced elsewhere. Why should we inefficiently produce goods that here, when they can be produced cheaper elsewhere? If we tried to do this as a function of national industrial policy, the price of our basic goods would double.
The beauty of the free market is that, should demand indicate a need for a certain product to be produced here (due to some real or percieved quality issue, for example) a company will step up to produce that product here because it will be in that company's best interest. The opposite is also true.
This is a very emotional issue. There are no 'perfect' solutions. However, the free market is clearly the least 'imperfect'. Centralization of economic policy has proven itself a failure time & time again. It's like Winston Churchill's old quote about democracy,,,
I understand what you mean. But the economic reality is that the ONLY thing in our best interests is for the US to continue to champion the free movement of capital (after all, who else will?). Specialization of labor will ensure each country produces what they produce best, and most efficiently. As each country specializes labor, these products can then be traded back & forth & everybody wins. In the US, we are increasingly becoming a service-based economy, as was predicted decades ago. We will continue to produce what might be defined as 'intellectual' products & services that are in high demand internationally. We will then trade these goods & services (the money we make from producing them) for more simple production goods that can more efficiently be produced elsewhere. Why should we inefficiently produce goods that here, when they can be produced cheaper elsewhere? If we tried to do this as a function of national industrial policy, the price of our basic goods would double.
The beauty of the free market is that, should demand indicate a need for a certain product to be produced here (due to some real or percieved quality issue, for example) a company will step up to produce that product here because it will be in that company's best interest. The opposite is also true.
This is a very emotional issue. There are no 'perfect' solutions. However, the free market is clearly the least 'imperfect'. Centralization of economic policy has proven itself a failure time & time again. It's like Winston Churchill's old quote about democracy,,,
SCSL said:
Microsoft can produce all the 'intellectual' products and services they want but they will never make any significant profit in China. The Chinese can get their hands on any quality product we have, copy it, then produce it cheaper. However, they cannot copy our American brand image. That is the only thing we have going for us in that market. I dunno, maybe I've been watching too much of Kramer's Mad Money on CNBC.
Is it your opinion that "free trade" will solve a growing trade deficit?
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If that were the case, we would all be running Chinese operating systems instead of Windows. MS has more to worry about from Linux then from Chinese copies of Windows programs. This is nothing new,,, years ago in Hong Kong you could buy black market copies of all the popular programs (Lotus 1-2-3, etc) for 25% or less of US retail value. Yet still,,,we create, produce, & sell.
Will free trade solve the trade deficit? Of course. Trade deficit is far less an issue than it's made out to be. It's a red herring for inefficient companies. As the trade deficit increases, the standard of living of average Chinese will grow, as will the Chinese middle class. These Chinese will seek out foreign goods (as they already are), which will send money back to more advanced economies, like ours. The value we get for these products & services will be greater than if we tried to prop up textile production, or whatever, in the United States. Thus,,,, we have the natural equilibrium effect of the free market.
Alternatively, we could prop up inefficient industries,,,, but it would be coming out of our tax dollars.
Remember that the capital to produce can come from only one of two places: private business, or the government. Private business will not invest in inefficient, money-losing industries. And government,,,well,,,,government HAS no money,,,other than that which they confiscate in the form of taxation. When government is allowed to dictate which industries receive that investment, the results have been very poor, as indicated by the historical record. A national industrial policy has proven to be produce great short-term spikes but very poor track records long term. Many recent examples of this in Japan, W. Europe, S Korea, etc. Inevitably, government will end up lending money in irrational ways (again, MANY examples of this). The free market will ensure the free flow of capital, and capital flows to where it is protected.
Will free trade solve the trade deficit? Of course. Trade deficit is far less an issue than it's made out to be. It's a red herring for inefficient companies. As the trade deficit increases, the standard of living of average Chinese will grow, as will the Chinese middle class. These Chinese will seek out foreign goods (as they already are), which will send money back to more advanced economies, like ours. The value we get for these products & services will be greater than if we tried to prop up textile production, or whatever, in the United States. Thus,,,, we have the natural equilibrium effect of the free market.
Alternatively, we could prop up inefficient industries,,,, but it would be coming out of our tax dollars.
Remember that the capital to produce can come from only one of two places: private business, or the government. Private business will not invest in inefficient, money-losing industries. And government,,,well,,,,government HAS no money,,,other than that which they confiscate in the form of taxation. When government is allowed to dictate which industries receive that investment, the results have been very poor, as indicated by the historical record. A national industrial policy has proven to be produce great short-term spikes but very poor track records long term. Many recent examples of this in Japan, W. Europe, S Korea, etc. Inevitably, government will end up lending money in irrational ways (again, MANY examples of this). The free market will ensure the free flow of capital, and capital flows to where it is protected.
"When government is allowed to dictate which industries receive that investment, the results have been very poor, as indicated by the historical record."
Airbus is largely supported by the EU. They have surpassed Boeing in sales. How have these results been very poor?
Airbus is largely supported by the EU. They have surpassed Boeing in sales. How have these results been very poor?
You bettcha
Sure! In the sense that subsidizing companies like Airbus has been an enormous drain on the governments involved and contributes to a greater problem of high tax rates, expensive entitlement programs, and increasingly, jobs migrating from Germany, France, et. al. to Eastern Europe. To the extent Western European governments subsidize industry, they further complicate other problems in their economies & prolong effective solutions. Many W. European governments are trying to get OUT of the subsidy business. Hence, you have this same debate going on in Western Europe. Just wait. Airbus will not be the first state-sponsored venture to ultimately fail in the marketplace due to poor investments, long-term quality deterioration, and eventually, the withdrawal of capital by governments that can no longer afford to sponsor these industries. Airbus will privatize, or go the way of state sponsored airlines, telephone companies, etc,,,all of which have already been privatized, are on the block, or are hemoraging cash. Furthermore, it should be noted that Airbus just LOST a big contract in India late last week to Boeing.
I appreciate your thoughtful responses & enjoy this discussion. This is a very emotional issue as, at any given point in time, it appears that we are playing the game with one hand tied behind our backs. It seems like our private industries will always be disadvantaged when competing against state-sponsored companies. However, the history of such competition sets the inherent problems of state-sponsorship is sharp relief & reveals our advantage.
The resiliance of our economy evidences the superior performance of market-based initiatives over the long haul. I want economic policy being dictated by those who have a financial stake in the game, not a bunch of attorney/politicians in Washington, many who have never had a real job or made an honest investment. This debate appears central to American politics today.
Sure! In the sense that subsidizing companies like Airbus has been an enormous drain on the governments involved and contributes to a greater problem of high tax rates, expensive entitlement programs, and increasingly, jobs migrating from Germany, France, et. al. to Eastern Europe. To the extent Western European governments subsidize industry, they further complicate other problems in their economies & prolong effective solutions. Many W. European governments are trying to get OUT of the subsidy business. Hence, you have this same debate going on in Western Europe. Just wait. Airbus will not be the first state-sponsored venture to ultimately fail in the marketplace due to poor investments, long-term quality deterioration, and eventually, the withdrawal of capital by governments that can no longer afford to sponsor these industries. Airbus will privatize, or go the way of state sponsored airlines, telephone companies, etc,,,all of which have already been privatized, are on the block, or are hemoraging cash. Furthermore, it should be noted that Airbus just LOST a big contract in India late last week to Boeing.
I appreciate your thoughtful responses & enjoy this discussion. This is a very emotional issue as, at any given point in time, it appears that we are playing the game with one hand tied behind our backs. It seems like our private industries will always be disadvantaged when competing against state-sponsored companies. However, the history of such competition sets the inherent problems of state-sponsorship is sharp relief & reveals our advantage.
The resiliance of our economy evidences the superior performance of market-based initiatives over the long haul. I want economic policy being dictated by those who have a financial stake in the game, not a bunch of attorney/politicians in Washington, many who have never had a real job or made an honest investment. This debate appears central to American politics today.
Just to clarify, I am no fan of the socialist policies of the EU. I believe in a free market system.
So when is our trade deficit with China going to start decreasing rather than increasing?
So when is our trade deficit with China going to start decreasing rather than increasing?