Premium Brands Now Made In China ???

[SCSL]

This is an impossible question to answer. Clearly your posts indicate that you are a smart man & know this.

I think the point is, that while economics is not a perfect science, we can identify trends & review the historical record. Again, given the choice as outlined in my post above, we are far better off maintaining the free flow of goods, services, capital (and yes, jobs) than allowing politicians to restrict it & dictate those flows. When we blur the boundaries surrounding these two choices, we typically end up with socialism, whether it's called "the third way", "social democracy", etc. This socialism is inevitably maintained by our tax dollars and decisions made by those often least qualified to make them.

 

[Ian95rrc]

I understand your position, overall I would agree with you. Your arguments have many valid points. I just think you seem to be sugar coating the situation a bit. Perhaps once the Chinese float their currency the current situation will improve.

 

[GregH]

Interesting discussion. Are you perhaps an econ student SCSL?

What's being left out of the discussion is the protectionist policies of place like China and, in fact, many European nations as well. While the US consumers may benefit short term from low prices from products from China, it should be obvious to anyone who investigates that we are not able to freely sell US products and services to China. If you notice, other nations are forced to produce their products (and co-invest in a local manufacturer) locally in order to sell to the Chinese market. I also regret purchasing and thus (yet I unfortunately still do) supporting a communist regime that does not allow and oppresses opposing political views and oppresses human rights.

Read David Ricardo's argument against Great Britain's "Corn Laws" for a good understanding of the benefits of free trade.

Now what ever happened to the old Frostline kits? If you didn't like the "quality" of the stitching or assembly you only had yourself to blame...

 

[SCSL]

Thanks Greg & Ian for great discussion. No, I'm not an econ student. Actually (no flaming please) I'm a financial services executive ,,,,, who has had the great (mis)fortune of living & travelling in communist & post-communist countries.

Yup, clearly China is not yet an open market. However, that has not slowed the flow of capital investment. Nor has it slowed the joint ventures in China (though foreign firms retain minority stake). I guess I should openly admit that I'm not 'pro-China'. I agree with your prev comments about supporting a communist regime completely, though like you I end up doing so every time I purchase a Chinese made product. The flip side of this, however, is that every time I do the Chinese communist party takes one more step toward callapse. Clearly China cannot continue going down the path of creating a market economy with a closed political system under the communist party. One of two things will happen: 1. The dynamic of private ownership will ultimately create a new political class that will transform Chinese politics or 2. The communist party will begin restraining the economy when confronted w/ the dynamic previously mentioned. This will not likely manifest in a Tianemen-type crack-down but rather in a militarization, perhaps in the Taiwan strait, perhaps over large-scale unrest in Hong Kong, or potentially (as we have seen recently) over territorial disputes with Japan.

This is analagous to the Cuba debate. Does the blockade hurt or help Castro? Does flooding Cuba with capital investment help create a middle class with an ownership mentality? Does that dynamic assist the cause of democracy? Many would argue that economic liberalization is the path towards political liberation.

At the end of the day, the Chinese middle class want what we want. Motives are the same. Similarly, the Chinese government behaves the way any government, when unrestrained, behaves. The Chinese are among the worlds great capitalists (witness Hong Kong, along with the expat Chinese populations in Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.) so I would give them the long-term advantage against the government. Take away capital investment & engagement in the international economy & China regresses to the Cultural Revolution & large scale peasantry.

 

[Ted]

I think this is a great discussion. However, am I the only one who sees the irony of a debate on the merits of "buying American" held by a bunch of guys driving British cars?

cheers,

Ted Moyer
2002 Disco II
1965 Series IIA

 

[SCSL]

Tu - Chay !! lol

 

[RickyRover]

technically isnt land rover in American Hands now?

 

[SCSL]

technically isnt land rover in American Hands now?

Interesting question. Depends on who you ask. If an American company produces overseas (in UK,,or India, China, etc) does that fit the bill? Or,,,what if Toyota operates a factory in US? In first case, jobs leave but capital flows back. In 2nd case jobs are created but capital flows back to Japan. BUT, what do the Japanese do with it? They buy US treasury bonds,,,LOL. Complex issues that in many cases are addressed with a 19th century economic attitude by our politicos. We can't keep ALL the jobs and all the capital here. That's why they call it "trade". Otherwise we prices would not float & overall quality would deteriorate. We would be paying top dollar to drive Pintos,,,

 

[SCSL]

I understand your position, overall I would agree with you. Your arguments have many valid points. I just think you seem to be sugar coating the situation a bit. Perhaps once the Chinese float their currency the current situation will improve.

Check out today's Wall Street Journal op-ed pg. A22 for good piece on revaluing the Yuan