Since when is this ok?

[D Chapman]

I was showing how attitudes towards policing differ in this area vs yours. You are concerned about a cow getting shot by overpowered police and I was showing a similar situation that was deemed acceptable.

I don't care about the cow. Or the gorilla. It just seems to me the odds of large animal getting loose in my area and causing a problem are a lot higher than the actual need for an MRAP.

 

[D Chapman]

I'm STILL not sure I see a difference between "blowing someone up" and their application of a large caliber round to the head turning it inside out? Both weapons accomplish the EXACT same thing, namely the death of the "bad guy". I'm fine with that.

It's been alluded to hear in an above reply - WE are dressing all "tactical", WE are the ones buying 1st person shooter games, WE are the ones decorating our guns with all sorts of "tactical" combat shit, WE are the ones that want to have the right to arm ourselves however we want, as much as we want, and in any manner we want. Cops are just trying to keep up with US. Don't ridicule a cop for having the same weaponry we have. (Now, not many of us have C4 but I'm sure there's some nut-job fighting for our "right" to have it.) We don't have a "bad" cop problem, or an "over-militarized" cop problem. We have a DUMB-cop problem! It's too fucking easy to be a cop! Period. You offer some poor sap with little to no future - or education- in a bum-fuck town $30k a year, a uniform, a "cool" gun, and a police car and you'll continue to have a ready supply of dumb cops! It should be an honor to be a cop, an accomplishment, and a privilege. I'm afraid it's just turned into a somewhat "cool" job.

Where is the next improvised use for C4 now? Bringing a bridge down? Blowing in the door of the wrong home? Sending a drone on a suicide mission in a shopping mall?

Just as there are some fucked up people in this country, there are equally fucked up cops. Now those cops have the idea of utilizing C4 in their heads. I just don't see C4 being part of the things that cops do. I don't know.

 

[seventyfive]

Where is the next improvised use for C4 now? Bringing a bridge down? Blowing in the door of the wrong home? Sending a drone on a suicide mission in a shopping mall?

Just as there are some fucked up people in this country, there are equally fucked up cops. Now those cops have the idea of utilizing C4 in their heads. I just don't see C4 being part of the things that cops do. I don't know.

all it does is desensitize us. The next time it won't shock anyone or incite any questioning.

 

[stu454]

all it does is desensitize us. The next time it won't shock anyone or incite any questioning.

That's the point.

 

[seventyfive]

Flash-bangs work best on folks that aren't keyed up; this guy was keyed up and alert-quite possibly ready to engaged (or use his alleged IED(s)) if he was hit with such a device. Why take the chance given the circumstances? Saying flash bang him is like saying taze him-sometimes it works, but it definitely isn't like the movies. Same-same with gas, a lot depends on location and ability to effectively employ it-far from a perfect solution and we aren't like the Russians where we'll use 'incapacitating' agents that really are just somewhat less than lethal (or rather are lethal when in high enough dose).

At the end of all this the Chief made the right call with the right tool at the time.

Both times I was in the gas chamber it worked! Throw some gas at somebody and yell 'hold your breath it makes it better!'
It does clear your sinuses out better than any Neti pot I've ever used.

 

[emmodg]

I promise ALL of you! I'm not looking to give cops MORE of a reason to behave like assholes. I'm NOT looking to make them MORE like "operators" and SF! I think MRAPs are about the DUMBEST thing a municipality can use it's money and man-power on! (Especially smaller ones like Daniel's or mine!) What I CAN'T do is question EVERY move they make, EVERY tool at their disposal. Many are right - we vote many of these idiots into power and that is OUR fault. We've become increasingly scared, intimidated, and concerned with terrorists and drug cartels, and "evil groups" seeking destruction. Does C4 have a place in the Orange Co. Sherrif's Department? Probably not. I dare say - fuck no! I'm not gonna waste my time wondering what police department is going to breach my door with C4 or bomb with drones and robots. Man there's too much shit to worry about! I'm more worried about slipping in the shower than C4 wielding robots. Smarten-up cops, recruit better and pay better and I damn well BET you you'll have less to worry about with cops! If I was a chief and caught you running around looking all "tactical" with a sleeve full of skull tattoos and Oakley Gas Cans your dumb ass would get sent home to change into something more befitting a public servant! Why the FUCK to cops run around in 30-pocket- having pants tucked into combat boots with a MOLLE-laden flack jacket in a Starbucks??

I've lost a SHIT ton of respect for the police and I hate myself for it. It's a damn shame so when I DO see some actually taking care of business I tend to give them a break.

 

[SGaynor]

I promise ALL of you! I'm not looking to give cops MORE of a reason to behave like assholes. I'm NOT looking to make them MORE like "operators" and SF! I think MRAPs are about the DUMBEST thing a municipality can use it's money and man-power on! (Especially smaller ones like Daniel's or mine!) What I CAN'T do is question EVERY move they make, EVERY tool at their disposal. Many are right - we vote many of these idiots into power and that is OUR fault. We've become increasingly scared, intimidated, and concerned with terrorists and drug cartels, and "evil groups" seeking destruction. Does C4 have a place in the Orange Co. Sherrif's Department? Probably not. I dare say - fuck no! I'm not gonna waste my time wondering what police department is going to breach my door with C4 or bomb with drones and robots. Man there's too much shit to worry about! I'm more worried about slipping in the shower than C4 wielding robots. Smarten-up cops, recruit better and pay better and I damn well BET you you'll have less to worry about with cops! If I was a chief and caught you running around looking all "tactical" with a sleeve full of skull tattoos and Oakley Gas Cans your dumb ass would get sent home to change into something more befitting a public servant! Why the FUCK to cops run around in 30-pocket- having pants tucked into combat boots with a MOLLE-laden flack jacket in a Starbucks??

I've lost a SHIT ton of respect for the police and I hate myself for it. It's a damn shame so when I DO see some actually taking care of business I tend to give them a break.

I agree.

But just for the record:

I completely agree with the DPD's use of C4 to take that guy out. No question.

Should a city the size of Dallas have a SWAT/EOD team? Absolutely. Should Bristol, TN/VA? Probably not (unless you consider meth labs need EOD). And they do have a bomb squad/truck.

 

[brian4d]

Off with his head! To soon?

 

[SGaynor]

Tactical Idiot:

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[emmodg]

He's preparing for when Obama comes to take his guns away. Or for when he needs to "occupy" a national park in the name of freedom!

THESE are the types of idiots that will ruin it for the rest of us! I don't fear our government. I fear some of us.

 

[SGaynor]

I don't fear our government. I fear some of us.

:rofl:

 

[msggunny]

I hear a lot of how "fucked up" the police are. How would you change things? How would you deal with another terrorist attack in progress (it aint going to stop just because the police get all friendly and JSOC/FBI HRT/ETC are busy doing other things)

Just playing devils advocate.

I all for restoring what i see as the erosion of our rights by over policing, but I don't think getting rid of police SWAT teams is the answer.

 

[Drillbit]

My only thoughts on this is that I would like there to be discussion and some set of uniform rules/guidelines of when it is ok for the police to blow someone up. Active shooter, dead LEO's, barricaded, talks broken down in Dallas I think it's justifiable. Now that this is an option there should be rules for it the same way there are rules for wire taps and search warrants.

 

[1920SF]

My only thoughts on this is that I would like there to be discussion and some set of uniform rules/guidelines of when it is ok for the police to blow someone up. Active shooter, dead LEO's, barricaded, talks broken down in Dallas I think it's justifiable. Now that this is an option there should be rules for it the same way there are rules for wire taps and search warrants.

I can't see that discussion being any different than one where the on scene commander decides to employ a sniper, or conduct a breach, or quite frankly to release a K9-in each case the realm of deadly force has been entered-the same basic considerations apply even if letting go the dog is far less dramatic (and happens far more often) than putting a small shaped charge on the opposite side of the wall and kicking it off.

As far as the erosion of rights by over-policing; I'm all in favor of rolling back the occasions with which the police execute their authority. A decent Atlantic piece came out the other day discussing the notion that law enforcement is essentially sanctioned violence (i.e. if governance is, at its most basic level, the legitimate control of violence then any law is society's perspective on what could, in theory, have violence applied to enforce it). If that's true what should, and should not, have punitive laws associated with it may need revisiting. (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/the-law-is-inherently-violent-a-debate/489104/)

 

[salvvia]

:bangbang:question to all if said dallas shooter had your family wife grandmother kid etc. pinned down and no resolve in sight and was killing others around them how fast and by what means would you want this guy handled.
answer: as soon as efn possible and by what ever means that would be absolutely effectively necessary
d

 

[Drillbit]

I can't see that discussion being any different than one where the on scene commander decides to employ a sniper, or conduct a breach, or quite frankly to release a K9-in each case the realm of deadly force has been entered-the same basic considerations apply even if letting go the dog is far less dramatic (and happens far more often) than putting a small shaped charge on the opposite side of the wall and kicking it off.

I do see a difference between a sniper and a bomb. Odds of a sniper wounding some other than the target are much lower than the odds than of a bomb. Snipers are supposed to be surgically efficient, bombs are by their nature less focused. How sure does law enforcement have to be that no one else is present to send it in a bomb? 100% 99% 80%? Is a pound of C4 the max? Is 2lbs? 10lbs?

 

[1920SF]

I do see a difference between a sniper and a bomb. Odds of a sniper wounding some other than the target are much lower than the odds than of a bomb. Snipers are supposed to be surgically efficient, bombs are by their nature less focused. How sure does law enforcement have to be that no one else is present to send it in a bomb? 100% 99% 80%? Is a pound of C4 the max? Is 2lbs? 10lbs?

I would disagree completely; this is what professionals do. Bombs are less focused-unless they are shaped charges which is generally how C4 is employed and while anyone that has worked with it knows the equation where P = plenty the reality is when you are using it for a discreet purpose like this; i.e. the reduction of an isolated assailant with a high degree of probability of injury to officers via other means you'd still deliberately look at what type of charge, amount of explosive, etc is being used and incorporate that into the process. While I might use half a satchel (b/c I can) to reduce insurgent gas pumps a professional EOD tech running a robot isn't going to take that approach on the problem.

Bear in mind everything you said about probability, that's just as true for a breach and entry...or quite frankly a dog release. The use of explosives isn't likely to become amateur hour.

 

[D Chapman]

Thomas J. Aveni, the executive director of the Police Policy Studies Council, told TIME that the events in Dallas should not be taken lightly. Given the precise circumstances in this case, the police were justified in their decision to use the robot to kill, he said. “But some will say it’s a slippery slope—that this remote way of killing people that we’ve accepted and embraced in the military realm, it is something that should be more closely examined, and I would concur,” he said.

“We should codify some ethical guideline on when people can be killed remotely,” he added. “Can we used aerial drones like we use in Afghanistan?”

A good read.
http://time.com/4398196/dallas-shooting-bomb-robot/

 

[az_max]

A good read.
http://time.com/4398196/dallas-shooting-bomb-robot/

I like the quote before that one:

“If we’re going to start using—as a country—this kind of drone technology and robots on a civilian population, then we’re easing into a civil war,” she told TIME. “We’re easing into one because we have civilians who believe that the government is not protecting them, and we have a government who believes that civilians are armed enough that they have to use military tactics.”

She needs a tin foil hat.

 

[1920SF]

It was a good read, sadly its also illustrative that when responsible journalism tries to round things out they find 'experts' or at least people with a title and an opinion, like this:

Other scholars said the situation seemed a little murkier. Keith Abney, a professor of ethics and emerging sciences at California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo, said that while the police officers’ decision to use the robot to kill the suspect in this case “doesn’t seem fundamentally ethically different from another distance weapon, like a sniper rifle, used to take out suspects in an active shooter situation,” there is still the question of why the suspect had to die.
“One can wonder why, if they could send in a teleoperated robot with C4 to kill the suspect,” he told TIME, “why they couldn’t instead equip the robot with knockout gas or some other nonlethal agent to capture the suspect, instead of killing him.”

Bad TV is why people say shit like this. That and they have no idea how real agents work in real application so they presume that what, the robot is going to cart up some shit they got from Nomar and ask the dude to put the mask on an inhale? The actual employment of chemical agents is a bit more complicated and rife with some issues-but lets not let that get in the way of some dude who has a PhD in something that allows them to color commentate without ever entering the fray.

The airborne armed UAV question is a good one but the collateral damage concerns even with the current state of munitions likely limits their utility; but ultimately we should have that discussion and someone should say "No, not on US soil" (we only do that to indigenous folks in other countries).