Where Did The White Man Go Wrong?

[MarkP]

Those are all white mans diseases, so your point is, well not a point at all...

You've been reading too many "white man is guilty" books.

Plains Indian Smallpox

Native populations of the Americas lacked immunity to the infectious diseases that had ravaged Europe and Asia for centuries. Sparse populations on the Plains, and in the pristine valleys of the Rocky Mountains, prevented a buildup of communicable diseases. The "white man" diseases…measles, chicken pox, typhus, typhoid fever, dysentery, scarlet fever, diphtheria, and after 1832, cholera…were devastating to the American Indian. Lumped together, these diseases did not equal the havoc of smallpox in terms of number of deaths, realignment of tribal alliances, and subsequent changes in Canadian and American Indian Cultures. . . . .​

 

[garrett]

You really are delusional Mark. Seriously. You honestly really believe are all your cut n paste material.

I could go on and on just in regards to agriculture and how whitey fucked it up and still doing so for ourselves and now bordering countries, but you'll find some BS on the Monsanto site to back up your "data". haha

 

[MarkP]

You really are delusional Mark. Seriously. You honestly really believe are all your cut n paste material.

I could go on and on just in regards to agriculture and how whitey fucked it up and still doing so for ourselves and now bordering countries, but you'll find some BS on the Monsanto site to back up your "data". haha

Bev is Native American, plains Indian, and I'm a mulatto, just like Obama. Heritage is British/French/West Indian - Saint Martin and Anguilla. Mix in some German, Irish on my fathers side.

I've been working my way back through geneological history, currently stuck in the 1700's. Records are a little sparse and location of those records is based on British, French and Dutch control of the Caribbean during that timeframe. But I do have family records from the 1800's to validate much of what I posted.

So, Garrett, you are delusional. In fact Ward Churchill has a seat in his classroom reserved just for you. Sounds like you would fit right in.

 

[garrett]

I guess if my girlfriend is Irish, then she'd know all about the potato famine. Interesting. I see your logic.

Ward would fit in with the likes of your hypocritic buddy Jerry Falwell and the rest of the religious right with sheeple in tow.

 

[MarkP]

. . I see your logic.

Thanks. From my family records many died at a very young age. It helped me understand large families. It is also interesting to observe marriages at 16. Not just a few, most. When the life expectancy is 40/50 years I suspect there is a whole different perspective on the family.

Ward would fit in with the likes of your hypocritic buddy Jerry Falwell and the rest of the religious right with sheeple in tow.

Assumption again? Falwell is not my buddy and I'm not the religious right. I will call someone out when they take the slippery slope of comparing violent fanatics with philosophical fanatics. Could it be 21st century fanaticism vs. 7th century fanaticism? There IS a difference.

 

[garrett]

Oh that's right McCain is sucking Falwells dick these days. My bad.

I was attempting to be sarcastic when I stated "I see your logic".

Yes family, culture and and passionate connection to the land were all very different back then. Something that the white man did take away from innocent (no all) natives. By some founding fathers that we place a little too high in my opinion.

I have no guilt about it, but I think it's at least fair to recognize the mis-deeds to the people the initially settled our country.

 

[Bannon88]

I have no guilt about it, but I think it's at least fair to recognize the mis-deeds to the people the initially settled our country.

Misdeeds? I think we gave them far more than they gave us. Some beads and the use of turquoise surely can't compare to.......

the fact that we gave them smallpox, rotten meat, alcohol, white bread and aqua-net(alternate alcohol), an education, many starring roles in Westerns, very poor land and the chance to grow and run very profitable casinos that have many advantages over other casinos.

I'm sure there is more, but right now that's all I got.

 

[Mike_Rupp]

Yes family, culture and and passionate connection to the land were all very different back then.

Are you saying that they had a passionate connection to the land and now no longer do? Have they lost that magic? If you look at the way that they fish now, I'd say so. They spear fish and net and have been depleting fish stocks simply because they can. Was that the white man's fault?

Garrett, how long have your people been in the US? Did they participate in the violence against the American Indians? Is that the reason for your guilt?

 

[MarkP]

Oh that's right McCain is sucking Falwells dick these days. My bad.

The same logic could be used to say Obama is sucking the Veterans dick these days. Both candidates will be calling on all significant groups prior to the election.

I was attempting to be sarcastic when I stated "I see your logic".

Too bad you can't see it.

Yes family, culture and and passionate connection to the land were all very different back then. Something that the white man did take away from innocent (no all) natives. By some founding fathers that we place a little too high in my opinion.

Seems your focusing on the one way aspects. Each culture benefits and loses when they come in contact. That is history Garrett. It has happened since history has been written. You could as easily replaced 'white man' with 'hispanic man' relative to North American Indians. Wait, North American?

I have no guilt about it, but I think it's at least fair to recognize the mis-deeds to the people the initially settled our country.

Recognizing culture clashes and focusing on them for gain are two different things. The 'white man's guilt' is being used purely for political and financial power. Obama's 'deeds' are nothing more than divide and conquor, reparations. First YOU need to feel guilty. Appears your already there.

Bev and I will be sending you a bill for reparations. You know, 'deeds'. :rofl:

 

[GregH]

LOL

Learn your history. Yes, the white man killed, enslaved, tortured, raped and stole from Native Americans by force of technological and numerical superiority and NO OTHER superiority.

However, Native Americans were/are not the enlightened innocents Garrett apparently thinks they were/are.

They did the same to each other over the millennia. One culture killing, enslaving, torturing, raping and even cannibalizing another long before whitey arrived.

Despite the political-correctness crap that is spewed these days, no race or culture has ever had a corner on the market of either good or evil.

The white man just brought his own brand of evil (and good) and dominated only through technology and numbers.

 

[ptschram]

You know? That's something else. It doesn't bother me to call them Native Americans, or by their tribe if they prefer it. Not because they ARE Native Americans, but rather, because they AREN'T bloody Indians. I could go with red, but they aren't really red, in the end. Being identified by tribe would be choice, but tribe isn't going to be apparent enough to everyone else for it to be used as identification.

Cheers,

Kennith

Some time back, there was a gentleman on NPR who was working to re-establish native american languages amongst the native American schools.

He and one of his children were in the grocery store speaking native-American. Someone who was clearly less educate don teh subject stopped them and told them they should be speaking 'Merican since they were in 'Merica.

I still laugh when I think of this occurring.

PT

 

[garrett]

Let me repeat again. I have no guilt.

Of course the Native Americans were not innocent. I never presumed that either. If someone were to step foot in my front door, I'd do whatever it took kill them too.

My point was in some fashion the "Wal Mart" way of life started very early on when whitey stepped foot here. Not having a clue how to properly farm the land and wasting the resources they were given. Not to mention bringing up the not so pretty picture of people like Andrew Jackson who alone ordered the death of thousands of Indians on the 'Trail of Tears' alone.

Other less industrialized countries have done a far better job of the "live and let live" attitude towards their natives and thus have connection to the original caretakers so to speak. These nations lack some of the freedoms we have, but have a stronger connection to their lands. We continue to produce very little (quality) at the larger scale. We've been going backwards for a VERY long time.

Regarding fishing techniques. Large scale commerical fishing is far more damaging than what a few tribes are doing. There are only a handful of sustainable (reefnet) fishing compaines in the Northwest in comparison.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

LOL

Learn your history. Yes, the white man killed, enslaved, tortured, raped and stole from Native Americans by force of technological and numerical superiority and NO OTHER superiority.

However, Native Americans were/are not the enlightened innocents Garrett apparently thinks they were/are.

They did the same to each other over the millennia. One culture killing, enslaving, torturing, raping and even cannibalizing another long before whitey arrived.

Despite the political-correctness crap that is spewed these days, no race or culture has ever had a corner on the market of either good or evil.

The white man just brought his own brand of evil (and good) and dominated only through technology and numbers.

:applause: now there is a accurate post!!

 

[Mike_Rupp]

L
Regarding fishing techniques. Large scale commerical fishing is far more damaging than what a few tribes are doing. There are only a handful of sustainable (reefnet) fishing compaines in the Northwest in comparison.

Yeah, and a handful of American Indians that net and throw the salmon on shore to rot.

 

[kennith]

NO man is innocent.

The point is, their existence was natural. Death and superiority are natural as well, and we still live in a violent natural world. The point is, they weren't breeding like flies in a shit factory. We are.

Of course your family looks like people died early a few hundred years ago. We were overpopulated in urban areas then as well, and sanitation was even worse. You aren't, as usual, looking back far enough.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[Mike_Rupp]

Please explain how breeding like flies in a shit factory is unnatural.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

Regarding fishing techniques. Large scale commerical fishing is far more damaging than what a few tribes are doing. There are only a handful of sustainable (reefnet) fishing compaines in the Northwest in comparison.

this is a bit of a over simplification of a complex problem.

commercial fishing dosent really exist in many of the waters that treaty spearing rights are taking place.

In northern wisconsin MOST of the fish taken by spearing are wasted yet spearing continues as a means to negotiate things such as casinos and water rights.

the current method being used is driving down shorlines in spring using electric shock to stun the fish then spearing them as they flounder to the surface. all done during spawning times and often crashing the populations in the lakes.

they added the electric shock part just in the past few seasons because their take had dropped off in recent years.

oh dont forget about the huge flood lights gas motors and steel spears

this practice has nothing to do with heritage or tradition but only about leverage at the negotiating table.

yes commercial fishing is outa hand but using the comparison to indian spearing is really not any type of camparison at all....two different issues with very different solutions.

 

[antichrist]

I'm guessing there's also a difference between fishing today and what it was 400 years ago.
Today you have a number of people forced in to a limited area trying to do "traditional" fishing with the result that you have over-fishing. 400 years ago those same people would be spread over a greater area and the impact would be less.

 

[Mike_Rupp]

There's also a big difference in how I'm allowed to fish and how an American Indian can fish. Compare using a single barbless hook to what Thom described above.

And Garrett, I'd take commercial fishing to fish farming anyday. Just do a google search or youtube search for sea lice. The salmon farms in BC are royally fucking up the wild salmon population.

 

[MarkP]

. . . Of course your family looks like people died early a few hundred years ago. We were overpopulated in urban areas then as well, and sanitation was even worse. . . . .

My family has mostly lived in rural "insert state/country/area of the world". On my fathers side the family farm was in southern Illinios during the 1800's, definitely not overpopulated. While contact with urban areas was limited, it was not zero. Same for plains Indians. The early deaths line up closely with the following epidemics:

1850-1 North America Influenza
1851 Coles Co., IL, The Great Plains, and Missouri Cholera
1852 Nationwide Yellow Fever