.45 ACP Selection

[brianhoberg]

There's a fine line between a shotgun for bird hunting and a shotgun for defense. I agree with kennith that when you consider the OAL for a hunting shotgun, manuevering that through a 3' wide hallway or checking the corner around a door is a bit cumbersome. Plus, having a shorter barreled, "tactical" style shotgun allows, in my opinion and shooting experience, a quicker reload if it's a pump action. Of course, if it's an automatic rechamber, then my point just went moot.

 

[Drillbit]

I will agree that for doing a swat style sweep of a house a full size shotgun isn't the right weapon but that's not really what we are talking about. Most people (those without children anyway) aren't going looking for the bad guy in their house. They are calling the police and waiting in whatever room they are in. This makes the fact shot guns can be cumbersome less of a problem. As for the fact a non direct hit wouldn't do much more damage than a normal round you're right, so if you hit the guy clean he is in all likelihood down for the count and if you are a little off you still hit the guy. That might change his mind about the wisdom of his course or at least slow him down long enough for you to rack in another round. I am not saying the shotgun is perfect for home defense but there is a place for it. If we are comparing it to an MP5 or AR style carbine then it will probably come up short but most people aren't going to buy one of those for home defense. To put a point on it, Kennith, would you rather have a 6 shot revolver (you can pick any caliber and ammo) or a full size 12 ga. 870 with 5 shots of 00 buck?

 

[roverMc]

The worst gun shot wound that I ever saw was teen shot with a shotgun using bird shot at close range. There was no saving him since there were hundreds of bleeding points. You should have seen the XRay it was something. The teen was shot over a girl by the way.....

 

[kennith]

Damnit, I had a good reply ready here and lost it. Should have typed it in Word, I suppose.

To directly answer your question, it depends entirely on the environment and the shooter. In some houses, a shotgun will be fine. In others, it won't work well. Sometimes, I'd take that revolver in a heartbeat.

In my opinion, however, a pump action shotgun belongs beside a carbine, or some other relevant weapon that repeats more quickly, is self-loading, and has a higher capacity for ammunition. In a home, that can be a handgun.

Your home determines the best weapon for the job. Much of home defense involves controlling your environment and arranging it to work to your advantage. This thread assumes an environment that is fine for a handgun. Nobody needs a shotgun, but some people would be better served by one.

I'd never recommend that a shotgun be the only method of defense, however.

I personally am not a Glock person, but I train with what I'm using, and I'm using a Glock right now for a full frame pistol. What I keep for immediate defense at the moment is a Glock 17 with the factory light/laser combo. The switch is set to activate only the light, and my finger rests on that switch as soon as I pick it up. I've got 18 rounds to play with from the get-go, and plenty more at the ready. If I wanted to go nuts, I could put one of my 33 round mags in there, but I only bought them for their silliness factor.

That isn't the only thing around, either. There is a heck of a lot more, but most is in the safe. There is, however, a carbine at the ready. It's a bit much for my defense needs here. This environment can be held with a handgun, but if I need the carbine, it is there. I go through stages with firearms. My go-to setup changes every now and again. It always conforms to certain criteria, however.

As hoberg said, however, this all assumes a pump action shotgun is what's being talked about, rather than any self-loading fancy stuff, some of which most people wouldn't know exists, anyway.

If you are all kinds of high-speed with a shotgun, more power to you. Most people aren't. To most, it's just a long, slow firearm that shoulders wrong for tight quarters and has a low ammunition capacity. As I said, they can be good, but not all the time, not for everyone, and not every model.

In my personal opinion, a shotgun is needed when you test your plan of action, try everything else, arrange your defenses, test everything again, train with it for a while, and sit there scratching your head wondering what is missing; and realize eventually that a shotgun would act in a much-needed role in the plan.

That's just it, though. Firearm discussion is full of opinion. My main point in all of this is that a shotgun is not the go-to weapon for home defense, unless it is called for in the situation.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[Andrew Homan]

[QUOTE
That's just it, though. Firearm discussion is full of opinion. My main point in all of this is that a shotgun is not the go-to weapon for home defense, unless it is called for in the situation.

Cheers,

Kennith[/QUOTE]

Usually full of opinion from people who have no experience with them. I love those people who tell me what weapon to use that have never even pointed a gun at another human before. Give me a break most opinion comes from gun gomers not experienced operators. Reading a article in Guns and Ammo does not give you credibility in my world.

This was not directed at you Kennith. Your post just made me think of those types.

Keeping you brain from pooring out your ear during an armed confrontation is the best weapon.

 

[kennith]

Usually full of opinion from people who have no experience with them. I love those people who tell me what weapon to use that have never even pointed a gun at another human before. Give me a break most opinion comes from gun gomers not experienced operators. Reading a article in Guns and Ammo does not give you credibility in my world.

This was not directed at you Kennith. Your post just made me think of those types.

Keeping you brain from pooring out your ear during an armed confrontation is the best weapon.

No offense taken. I've been guilty of participating in a few nonsense firearm debates. Sometimes, people just want to know what's out there and what the differences are.

I try to remember to point out opinions in firearm posts when I present them. Some of what I've written here is, and some isn't. I don't always remember to, though. It is a delicate subject, and a subject where not enough fact is presented.

Different situations call for different firearms, and different training calls for different firearms. Likewise, different anatomy can call for different firearms. I cannot effectively employ any pistol with a functional lever on the slide. My right thumb was broken in a bad spot; and I just can't reach the darned things without either releasing my firing grip in order to reach it, or using the thumb of my support hand, which I haven't been able to feel since my shoulder was torn out of socket.

You make a very good point, but a point that nobody ever wants to hear. Most people don't have the mental discipline or natural ability to operate under the stress of a deadly encounter.

Buying a firearm, taking it to the range a few times; keeping it for defense, and even taking aim on an assailant is one thing.

Pulling the trigger, without thought or hesitation, deliberately ending a life without any consideration beyond that which is required of you for the job; moving forward into battle, that is another thing entirely.

Of course, there is more, enough to fill... well, years of training in the actual field, and experience in said field. As I said, however, nobody ever wants to hear it. As well, there is no way to get that experience into someone's head. That has to happen on it's own, with real training and passing the test of the actual execution of those actions.

People want to buy a weapon and be captain kick-ass after a carbine course or a few trips to the range. More power to them; it's their ass, not mine. I don't work with them.

I'm sometimes up for a fun firearm debate, but when it comes down to it, the truth of the matter is almost never focused on the firearm itself. Rather, it is focused on the situation and the role one is to play in the operation. From there, you eventually work your way to what firearm you need for the job.

Home defense, beyond the obvious, is about defending the home, not firearm selection.

I'm just in this to point out the 1911 vs everything else nonsense, and about the apparent need for a shotgun. That crap needs to die.

Of course, that is only my opinion.:rofl:

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[LilRascle]

I'm guessing it will end up like the 10 that the Feds migrated too or like the .357 sig? You are probably correct as I only see Glock making it and no ammo anywhere.

Fad!. It will be gone soon. I think there are some agencies on the east coast that use it.

I just came back from a three day Tactical Officers Conference.About 200 SWAT COPS there. Glock had a big display there and there was not one 45 gap pistol there.

 

[stu454]

The 10 still has a loyal following in full power trim.

I liked the idea of the .357 SIG but the only HK I ever had a stoppage with was a USP Compact chambered for that cartridge.

 

[Andrew Homan]

The 10 still has a loyal following in full power trim.

I love the 10mm. But its rare to find one in military or LE service now. I say that while there are two 10mm Glock guide rod springs on my desk.

 

[kennith]

I'm hopefully about to have a lot of fun with 10mm.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[Andrew Homan]

All this 10 talk makes me want one. I know some guys like the glock ten for bear defense. I think itrs a little light for that. Then again I think all handguns are a little light for dangerous game.

 

[osiristheclown]

I would choose a short barrel "tactical" shotgun for home defense over any handgun. At close range with medium size shot like 7 1/2 a hit will SHRED flesh and turn the offending party into hamburger on the bone. I have seen this up close, it isn't pretty.

 

[David Kronenfeld]

I picked up one of these a few months ago and it's a pretty sweet gun. Well-balanced, large shotshell capacity, and nice sights.

http://remington.com/products/firearms/tactical/shotguns/model-870-express-tactical.aspx

 

[stu454]

Man I hope this doesn't turn into the 'Shotguns for Home Defense' thread.

That was goat roping on a scale never seen before or since.

 

[David Kronenfeld]

Walter's Board w/ nails is still the best home defense weapon...

 

[dirtyjim]

i've had 4 45acp pistols & still have three of them.
i prefer colt 1911's. i had a hk usp compact and just never warmed up to it. it shot good enough and was reliable but for some reason i didn't like it enough to keep it.
on the 1911's i prefer a flat mainspring housing over the arched A1 mainspring housing.
the three 45's i have are military colts. the prices on them have gotten ridiculous in the last few years.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/dirtyjim/militarycolts.jpg
top is a WWI black army 1911 made in 1918, good shooter.
middle is a butchered british raf rework made in 1918, it was converted to 45acp, had the A1 style finger cuts made behind the trigger, has a A1 mainspring housing on it. recut the rear sight dovetail larger & gorilla polished, but its still a good shooter & a nice piece of history. all the damage was done before i got it
bottom a 1943 colt 1911A1 canadian lend lease, one of only 12 known to make it back to the U.S. it has a lot of holster wear. i've only seen one other one for sale, it had been refinished, had the wrong slide & still sold for close to $5000
i don't shoot it much because of the rarity of it

 

[brianhoberg]

Went to the gun shop yesterday and looked at a number. Namely, they were trying to get my attention to a G36. I liked the Glock 36, but they kept pushing the biggest advantage to it over the comparable Glock compact was that it was inline versus staggered bullet lining in the clip and the fact that it was made more for CC. They wanted $660 for the G36, so I decided to keep looking.
They showed me a Kimber which, while a great gun, is too much for what I am looking to pay for a .45ACP.
They tried to sell me an H&K chambered in .40S&W. Good gun, I can reload for it since I do have most of the components needed, just not my cup of tea.
so, the journey continues.

 

[pdxrovermech]

good to here you're open to trying everything. Just keep looking till you find one that feels right and is at the right price. I myself am a beretta man, good form and function, but its important to find something you're comfortable with. There are plenty of quality .45s out there without having to drop $1k just to have a top of the line name.

 

[Andrew Homan]

Went to the gun shop yesterday and looked at a number. Namely, they were trying to get my attention to a G36. I liked the Glock 36, but they kept pushing the biggest advantage to it over the comparable Glock compact was that it was inline versus staggered bullet lining in the clip and the fact that it was made more for CC. They wanted $660 for the G36, so I decided to keep looking.
They showed me a Kimber which, while a great gun, is too much for what I am looking to pay for a .45ACP.
They tried to sell me an H&K chambered in .40S&W. Good gun, I can reload for it since I do have most of the components needed, just not my cup of tea.
so, the journey continues.

Brian can you wait till May. I'll be in Texas and can help you with this. Most gun shop people have no clue what you want. They just know what they think is cool and think you should have it too.

 

[kennith]

Brian can you wait till May. I'll be in Texas and can help you with this. Most gun shop people have no clue what you want. They just know what they think is cool and think you should have it too.

Wait until May, dude. Wait until May. Homan is absolutely right. If you have a chance to go shopping with an expert, use it.

You know that saying about teaching and doing? Well, in general, it applies to the guys behind the counter at gun shops as well. If you aren't high speed, sell guns. Many of them are far worse than used car salesmen.

They don't know shit, and they know the customer doesn't know shit, so they pretend to know shit and bullshit the customer into buying shit. No matter what happens, it's a load of shit in the end.

I've seen some good shops, but most I've seen were run by morons. If you can take Homan with you, do it. He will be able to help you find what's right for you, rather than simply what he or someone else likes.

Cheers,

Kennith