D Chapman said:
I think it looks GREAT like that....Makes me almost want an LR3! I've been thinking it would be a great DD ...
I think it looks GREAT like that....Makes me almost want an LR3! I've been thinking it would be a great DD ...
D
D Chapman
Guest
gmookher said:
I think she's already done that....
gmookher said:
I'm not saying that at all because I do not know. But, anything ever made has to be better than the stock junk installed into the D1 and D2's axle housings. That stuff was bottom of the barrel scrap. I mean, really.
gmookher said:
So, the guys that are running 34" swampers on stock Toyota rear axles are making a poor choice? What about the guys running 40" swampers on stock axles? 14-bolts are weak, too? D-60's? D-70's?
I'm not going out on a limb here and saying that the LR3/RR/RRS axles are bullet proof and with easily hold up to 33 or 34" tires. But, what I am saying is it's a simple design that can easily be addressed. Yet, that's only the beginning. The D2 has been around for 8-years now, and only last month was there a HD front axle option available. As more and more people start to wheel these trucks the parts list will grow in reference to what is needed to hold up. For now, from what I can gather, the stock drivetrain is fine to fit the options available. Once kits are produced to lift the trucks in such a way 35" tires can be fitted, the accessories will follow; just like they did with your D2.
gmookher said:
I don't think it will be "a while". The LR3 platform. It's not a hard lift and company's have been doing the same basic things since 1986 on Toyota, Nissan, and Ford; A-arms are nothing new. Transaxles are nothing new. Half-shafts are nothing new. The kits will come, but there first has to be a market.
gmookher said:
I think this is the most logical thing you've said. It will take time and the truck are going to need to be tested on the trail, not the internet. Once the weak links are found they can be addressed. In this thread, the plastic bumper and vulnerable components of the truck were addressed - step one complete. Next, it may be the rear bumper or sliders....then it night be the control arms or airbags. Only time will tell. New stuff is still being built for the Jeep and it's been around for how long now??
gmookher said:
That's an umbrella statement. Sure, things will break, that's a given. But I don't see much more mechanical things breaking on the new generation Rovers than any other Rover produced in the last 17-years. The CPU's is the only real thing that scares me...
D
D Chapman
Guest
JBailey said:D. If she can get the LR3 back up here for some more R&D I think some of those thing could get doneOctober is comming fast though!!!
It was mentioned to Steve and Justin.....But I think they are tired of looking at the LR3 right now, lol. They had it for what, 3-weeks?
Just from Steves actions, and I'm not talking for him, I think he wants to get the bumper fine tuned before moving on to new stuff. But, he was made aware, by Tami, that she's ready to keep moving. I'm not sure how involved RTE wants to be in the LR3 at this time, but it would be cool if he expands his product line a little.
dan,D Chapman said:
you have a good point- some automakers have INDEED stepped up to the plate;
indeed some vehicles come from the factory with 14 bolt/dana/trd spec.
thats a blessing for those owners..
we rover-ites arent so lucky i guess. its not really luck, is my point, the designers at rover COULD design tougher, but they didnt,whilst the engineers at toyota, jeep DID
LR is not -sorry-, rather, has not been historically- one of those vehicles *despite* being aimed at the off roader.
We all know you wont make it far, stock, in the best 4x4xFar.
Manufacturers dont put cdl on truck that wasnt made to be driven off road. then, You also shouldnt expect SUCH flimsy diffs/axels on a rigg thats sold to folks who want cdl and paid for it. I just dont expect the lr3 to be differnt, if it proves me wrong, all the better for all of us
I'm not bitter i am just saying, in 8 years I think they could have made some more changes, and they did in 03/04 but it wasnt enough. taking an axel off a '99RR and supplying it on a '04d2 is hardly new engineering to me-i guess thats my point.
the bigger power plant was met with a driveline that could not haul my truck up Kennys climb in moab, its not that hard an obstacle either.my rigg is just 2.5 years old and these failures occured under the original 50k warranty. will the lr3 do the same climb? will it break? I'd suspect so, but thats given my 1st hand expereinces
I sure do hope they have 'changed their ways' and are 'delivering what the market wants' in their 'designed from the ground up LR3' but my prior experience with rovers leaves me less than optimistic-thats all.
taking a domestic pickup that was built for hauling a ton or two and tossing swampers is one thing,
taking a vehicle that has been advertised as the african safari vehicle of choice and realizing its got crap for drivetrain is another
gordonwh said:
You're imagining an argument where there is none. I gave my opinion about which way I want to go this time. I've already created the $50K rig, and this time I want to do something different that better fits my situation. Are you saying that if I go ahead with getting a D1/RRC vs fixing up my LR3 that I'm making a mistake? No, I didn't think so. :yawn:
I wheel my LR3 more than most people, probably on par with Gordon. Certainly more than Tami has, though she is catching up quick!
Problem areas have not been mechanical in nature. Universally, the (urethane?)bushings in the control arms, sway bars, etc... seem to be where most people are experincing wear. And the gas tanks are vunerable.
It should be noted that I have full underbody protection plates and massively beefy rock sliders, all of which get hit a LOT. Overall, the truck is about 4" too low for serious wheeling through rock gardens. About the biggest I can make it through no problem is basketball sized rocks, but that's about it. I've been in trash can sized rocks, but have needed a tug here and there. Thank goodness for factory recovery points!
Stock, the LR3 approach and departure angles are significantly better than a D2 or D2 with stock bumpers and a 2" lift. I've rubbed my bumpers here and there, but you wouldn't be able to tell if they were the stock black plastic. They are remarkably pliable
The key to the LR3 is the phenominal traction control, which can get it through most obstacles, even with only one or two wheels on the ground, in any combination. But when the rocks get bigger, it just can't keep up with a nicely built trail rig.
Questions that I have in the discussion above is what happens to all those enabling systems should you build it up with +33" tires, permanent 5" lift, aftermarket locking diffs, etc... Other than the increased ground clearance, would it actually degrade it's off road traction abilites? Possibly. I've seen the LR3 walk through stuff that nicely built trail rigs need to take a couple of shots at.
As for trail side repairs, there was a group that did the big Morroco off road challenge last year. They brought a T4 testbook with them, and cleared a few faults as they occured. One guy blew an airline, and did a simple field repair and kept on rolling. The major items that occur can be resolved with a basic OBD scanner, much like the D2 and the Three Amigos. However, that OBD reader is a triffle more expensive (about $15,000!).
The limp home mode is pretty well thought out in the LR3. I have triggered it once. I got a whole dashboard of lights at RR7 this spring due to a broken (dislodged) wheel sensor after driving through a hundred miles of some nasty washboard. The truck continued to operate for the next three days, though in a reduced capacity (center locking diff only, no traction control systems).
Is this the truck to spend a month cruising across the Tangiers desert in? No, I don't think so. That's why they still make the Defender.
Is there a future market for off roaders in the LR3? Yes, absolutely. Already in my club, 23% of the members have LR3's. That's astonishing. Give it about 3 years and you will see MANY more put to use. That's when things will get interesting.
For now, we've got people like Gordon, Tami, GEOLAND, Dave Lane, Adam Spiker, Gerry Barrigan and myself who push and push and learn the breaking point. Can you fit 35's on an LR3? Yes, it's been done. Is it stock? Not even close. Nor is a D1 or Classic or even a Defender that's running 35's. Can you build a competant Bowler style rally car? Maybe. I know two people attempting it.
Has Land Rover forgotten it's roots? I'm not sure, but certainly it's owners have. Or maybe they are just greedy. Have you seen the new Bronco? I think Ford milked LR for the 2009 Defender platform, and instead of selling the Defender here, they are going to package it as the Bronco, and dump Land Rover.
I think the next few years will be interesting indeed.
Problem areas have not been mechanical in nature. Universally, the (urethane?)bushings in the control arms, sway bars, etc... seem to be where most people are experincing wear. And the gas tanks are vunerable.
It should be noted that I have full underbody protection plates and massively beefy rock sliders, all of which get hit a LOT. Overall, the truck is about 4" too low for serious wheeling through rock gardens. About the biggest I can make it through no problem is basketball sized rocks, but that's about it. I've been in trash can sized rocks, but have needed a tug here and there. Thank goodness for factory recovery points!
Stock, the LR3 approach and departure angles are significantly better than a D2 or D2 with stock bumpers and a 2" lift. I've rubbed my bumpers here and there, but you wouldn't be able to tell if they were the stock black plastic. They are remarkably pliable
The key to the LR3 is the phenominal traction control, which can get it through most obstacles, even with only one or two wheels on the ground, in any combination. But when the rocks get bigger, it just can't keep up with a nicely built trail rig.
Questions that I have in the discussion above is what happens to all those enabling systems should you build it up with +33" tires, permanent 5" lift, aftermarket locking diffs, etc... Other than the increased ground clearance, would it actually degrade it's off road traction abilites? Possibly. I've seen the LR3 walk through stuff that nicely built trail rigs need to take a couple of shots at.
As for trail side repairs, there was a group that did the big Morroco off road challenge last year. They brought a T4 testbook with them, and cleared a few faults as they occured. One guy blew an airline, and did a simple field repair and kept on rolling. The major items that occur can be resolved with a basic OBD scanner, much like the D2 and the Three Amigos. However, that OBD reader is a triffle more expensive (about $15,000!).
The limp home mode is pretty well thought out in the LR3. I have triggered it once. I got a whole dashboard of lights at RR7 this spring due to a broken (dislodged) wheel sensor after driving through a hundred miles of some nasty washboard. The truck continued to operate for the next three days, though in a reduced capacity (center locking diff only, no traction control systems).
Is this the truck to spend a month cruising across the Tangiers desert in? No, I don't think so. That's why they still make the Defender.
Is there a future market for off roaders in the LR3? Yes, absolutely. Already in my club, 23% of the members have LR3's. That's astonishing. Give it about 3 years and you will see MANY more put to use. That's when things will get interesting.
For now, we've got people like Gordon, Tami, GEOLAND, Dave Lane, Adam Spiker, Gerry Barrigan and myself who push and push and learn the breaking point. Can you fit 35's on an LR3? Yes, it's been done. Is it stock? Not even close. Nor is a D1 or Classic or even a Defender that's running 35's. Can you build a competant Bowler style rally car? Maybe. I know two people attempting it.
Has Land Rover forgotten it's roots? I'm not sure, but certainly it's owners have. Or maybe they are just greedy. Have you seen the new Bronco? I think Ford milked LR for the 2009 Defender platform, and instead of selling the Defender here, they are going to package it as the Bronco, and dump Land Rover.
I think the next few years will be interesting indeed.
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JamesWyatt said:
Apologies if I read you wrong - your line:
certainly sounded like a blanket statement, if not exactly providing an argument.
I'd like to clear something up here. I don't (necessarily) intend to modify my D3 such that I can run 35" tyres on it. I'm aiming at modifying it such that it can compete with my D1 on 35" tyres. An important difference. The D3 doesn't have low-hanging diffs, so 33" is probably the most needed. Hence the reason why I've just purchased 32.5" Super Swamper TSL radials. With some small mods to the air suspension (which gives a 2" lift), the car should be close to the performance I'm after, and still be essentially stock. I should have the vehicle ready for scrutineering next week (for the start of the Winter comp season) - I'll post some pics then.
And I would never modify/add to the traction control (eg front locker etc) - the stock system is good enough as it is.
Cheers,
Gordon
D
D Chapman
Guest
I think one of the assets of the lr3 is its air suspension, I seriously liked its abilty to be 'soft at all corners' and IMHO this is a contributing factor to the lr3's traction advantaged over a stock disco, or even most lifted ones
pumping up those air bags to max to gain height is kinda counter intuitive- making the bags firmer will impact the cars ability to track and tuck/articulate(?)-no?
I'd sooner see ya break it down to a 1" spacer an a lil extra air bag lift
I think tall coils may hurt or subtract from the superior design of the lr3 air suspension over discos
I dont even think its realistic to take a stock lr3 with 32.5 and put it up against a d1 on 35s or even a d2 with enhanced angles on 33s
lr3 improved over discos but not by that much-the photo where youre being spotted on trash can sized stuff is hardly a challeneg for a disco...spotterles, but thats just my opinion, and I paid almost $2gs to test drive an 2005 v8 lr3 for 2 weeks in moab before I went back and picked up my 2004 disco...but that was trail based choice. off the trail, i'd take an lr3 over a disco any day of the year. Highway manners etc, awesome rigg.
I'd like to see the lr3 run some level 7,8 & 9 trails behind me and see after 3 days where both riggs are(putting foot in mouth as i type)
DID I READ THAT RIGHT $1350 for a set of sliders???
can you even put a locker in the front end of an lr3?(I dont mean a project, I mean drop in like discos)
pumping up those air bags to max to gain height is kinda counter intuitive- making the bags firmer will impact the cars ability to track and tuck/articulate(?)-no?
I'd sooner see ya break it down to a 1" spacer an a lil extra air bag lift
I think tall coils may hurt or subtract from the superior design of the lr3 air suspension over discos
I dont even think its realistic to take a stock lr3 with 32.5 and put it up against a d1 on 35s or even a d2 with enhanced angles on 33s
lr3 improved over discos but not by that much-the photo where youre being spotted on trash can sized stuff is hardly a challeneg for a disco...spotterles, but thats just my opinion, and I paid almost $2gs to test drive an 2005 v8 lr3 for 2 weeks in moab before I went back and picked up my 2004 disco...but that was trail based choice. off the trail, i'd take an lr3 over a disco any day of the year. Highway manners etc, awesome rigg.
I'd like to see the lr3 run some level 7,8 & 9 trails behind me and see after 3 days where both riggs are(putting foot in mouth as i type)
DID I READ THAT RIGHT $1350 for a set of sliders???
can you even put a locker in the front end of an lr3?(I dont mean a project, I mean drop in like discos)
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D
D Chapman
Guest
gmookher said:
LOL, yeah, that's funny as hell. The slider are sooo simple on this truck. I would MUCH rather build sliders for the LR3 than for a D1....
1. I agree that one significant componet of the LR3's ability is the excellent articulation afforded by the air suspension. I think it has 13" of drop, which is quite respectable. Here is a shot of Dave Lane on the RTI rack. My truck has some perceived advantages with it's relative simplicty electronically, but it definately lacks the articulation of the air suspension models. I've been able to tackle a lot of obstacles and terrian primarly on the abilities of the traction control system and perhaps a bit of driving, but it would be easier and better with the articulation of the air suspension, no doubt about it.
2. No, there is no locker conversion or upgrade for the front or rear diffs in the LR3, yet. There may never be one for the front, but quite foreseably for the rear I think.
3. Yes, that price is correct, but there is a LOT more to them than just tube sliders like the Disco's and Classics than you may be used to. There is a fully contoured plate that is about 18" deep and the full length from wheel well to wheel well that covers the frame to the top of the door sill, and all the sensitive bits underneath, like the compressor and tank. Over 90 square feet of laser cut and custom bent & welded 3/16" steel plate, per side, plus the optional stand off tubes.
2. No, there is no locker conversion or upgrade for the front or rear diffs in the LR3, yet. There may never be one for the front, but quite foreseably for the rear I think.
3. Yes, that price is correct, but there is a LOT more to them than just tube sliders like the Disco's and Classics than you may be used to. There is a fully contoured plate that is about 18" deep and the full length from wheel well to wheel well that covers the frame to the top of the door sill, and all the sensitive bits underneath, like the compressor and tank. Over 90 square feet of laser cut and custom bent & welded 3/16" steel plate, per side, plus the optional stand off tubes.
LOL, simple these sliders are not. However, this thread is not intended to be a sales pitch for rock sliders. If you want to learn more, go to www.offroving.com and/or PM me, but let's talk about bumpers and LR3 capabilities.
gordonwh said:
I think I summarized Land Rover's new LR3 marketing strategy and its target audience pretty well. I don't consider those who mod and wheel their LR3s to be a part of that group. :victory:
gmookher said:
True, but I'm _not_ going to max - I'm not adding any more than the std car's 'extended profile' pressures, which provides an additional 2" of lift, but is still significantly below max pressure (360psi instead of 540psi, if I remember correctly). Although the articulation suffers a little, it is by no means uncompliant at those pressures. And the traction control really is good enough to mask the change.
gmookher said:
Not sure I know which photo you're referring to, but a D3 on a decent set of tyres (with the eLocker) will perform amazingly well in comparison to a locked D2 on 33's. The lack of diff drag certainly helps, as does the suspension compliance and torque.
gmookher said:
I'll be doing something similar in September at the 'Mud Guts and Glory' comp - so I guess we'll see then. Quite a few classic Rangies, Discos, Jeeps and Patrols there!
Cheers,
Gordon
gordonwh said:
Cool, it seems you've got a handle on the lr3 mods
where is this at? oh shoot its the other side of the ocean- I'd LOVE to join you on that trip sounds like a fun outing!(jealous)
make sure to post some video and pics!
cheers
gem
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D
D Chapman
Guest
Tami is on here way to FL. On the way to VA 3-weeks ago, before the bumper, she averaged 14.8MPG. She just called from SC and she's now getting 17.3MPG with the Rovertym bumper!
Maybe it's coincidences, but it would be interesting to hear what others LR3 owners get with the 6-cyl motor.
Maybe it's coincidences, but it would be interesting to hear what others LR3 owners get with the 6-cyl motor.
It has nothing to do with the bumper. It is instead, I believe, because you laid your hands on it... the True Miracle Child of God.