D
D Chapman
Guest
no you understand me. i think we are close to agreeing. the LR3 and Olds Bravado will go further than most of us would think. that can be said for just about anything.
i'm aware that an LR3 will do some impressive things, as will the new RRs.
but you're never going to be able to trail repair an LR3 as easily as a D1. ever. they are not designed to be trail servicable like a D1. they are designed to be taken to the dealer, not worked on by a shade tree mechanic along the trail.
enthusiasts are no longer designing and building the Land Rovers we see today. the fit and finish of the new rovers far surpases anything we have seen in the past, but take a look underneath and you will see where they have made a lesser vehicle. everyone is doing it as they should. it makes no sense not to use cast or overbuilt parts in modern SUVs.
the '04 D1 is the end of the road for me with Land Rover as it sits today. Jeep is outpacing Land Rover, but i'm not willing to take that step either.
i am sure the bumper Steve built makes the LR3 a more capable vehicle. my point from the beginning was that it just doesn't seem to fit with the vehicle. it looks good and all that, but to me it's still like putting lipstick on a pig.
i'm aware that an LR3 will do some impressive things, as will the new RRs.
but you're never going to be able to trail repair an LR3 as easily as a D1. ever. they are not designed to be trail servicable like a D1. they are designed to be taken to the dealer, not worked on by a shade tree mechanic along the trail.
enthusiasts are no longer designing and building the Land Rovers we see today. the fit and finish of the new rovers far surpases anything we have seen in the past, but take a look underneath and you will see where they have made a lesser vehicle. everyone is doing it as they should. it makes no sense not to use cast or overbuilt parts in modern SUVs.
the '04 D1 is the end of the road for me with Land Rover as it sits today. Jeep is outpacing Land Rover, but i'm not willing to take that step either.
i am sure the bumper Steve built makes the LR3 a more capable vehicle. my point from the beginning was that it just doesn't seem to fit with the vehicle. it looks good and all that, but to me it's still like putting lipstick on a pig.
Having spent some time in an LR3 off-road and on, I would gladly take it over a D1 maybe even a D2(only D2 I would have is 04) any time. If we are talking about a Daily driver/ weekend fun machine. Hardcore rockcrawler??? Not yet. Give RTE alittle more time and alittle more demand for such things and they will come. I remember when a D1 with 265's was the baddest thing around. Then it was 33's then 35's, now who knows... 40's???
Out of the box the LR3 if one of the most caplable vehicles on the market. Is it the best trail truck? No. Is it the best family car? No. It is a wonderful blend of many things. Yes.
The technology that many of you see as such negatives in this car are no worse than the abs driven traction control in the D2's. At least the LR3 can reset itself if you break it and then repair it on trail(seen this one).
Even the J**ps require many $$$ worth of mods to become acceptable wheelers to most. And we spend that same money on the same accessories. Tires, Winches, bumpers, lifts, straps, skidplates...etc
If you do not like the lines of the LR3 then move on. I think the car has a nice look to it and this new bumper really helps to toughen the look. Is is right for everyone? NO! But at least you now have another choice.
Buy the way you can swap out the air bags for springs and..... well that is another story....
I love that this lady was willing to step up and let someone "do as they wanted" to her very nice LR3.
When she is ready for more mods I am willing to put in some more time for someone who can see the potential and seems to love the car.
Out of the box the LR3 if one of the most caplable vehicles on the market. Is it the best trail truck? No. Is it the best family car? No. It is a wonderful blend of many things. Yes.
The technology that many of you see as such negatives in this car are no worse than the abs driven traction control in the D2's. At least the LR3 can reset itself if you break it and then repair it on trail(seen this one).
Even the J**ps require many $$$ worth of mods to become acceptable wheelers to most. And we spend that same money on the same accessories. Tires, Winches, bumpers, lifts, straps, skidplates...etc
If you do not like the lines of the LR3 then move on. I think the car has a nice look to it and this new bumper really helps to toughen the look. Is is right for everyone? NO! But at least you now have another choice.
Buy the way you can swap out the air bags for springs and..... well that is another story....
I love that this lady was willing to step up and let someone "do as they wanted" to her very nice LR3.
When she is ready for more mods I am willing to put in some more time for someone who can see the potential and seems to love the car.
If anyone made a mud tire that fit the 18" LR3, then I'd be afraid of it taking me where I'd get too much body damage. Even the 19" MTR cannot be had in the US.
Minimum of about $5500:
ARB LR3 Winch Bar Front Bumper (3432150) $1130
Superwinch X9 Planetary Winch With Roller Fairlead (1901C) $980
Odyssey Batteries PC1500 Battery (0785-2035) $225
Expeditionware Winch Line (EW27) $375
Rasta 4x4 LR3 Lower Door Guards (DOORS) $500
Rasta 4x4 LR3 Radiator Guards (RADIATOR) $600
Rasta 4x4 LR3 Underbody Guard (UNDERBODY) $350
Rasta 4x4 LR3 Gearbox Guard (GEARBOX) $350
5-Nitto TerraGraps $900+-
Not a poor man's sport. Too rich for me when an already tricked-out D1 or RRC can be had for under $6K.
The LR3 - for me - is just as pictured in their commercials: urbanites with delusions of using the traction control knob during a natural disaster, and for that it fits the bill quite nicely. My LR3 will likely get the tow bar plus wiring and pull a trailer with an older Rover for the trails. It's just too nice of a vehicle to beat all to shit.
Minimum of about $5500:
ARB LR3 Winch Bar Front Bumper (3432150) $1130
Superwinch X9 Planetary Winch With Roller Fairlead (1901C) $980
Odyssey Batteries PC1500 Battery (0785-2035) $225
Expeditionware Winch Line (EW27) $375
Rasta 4x4 LR3 Lower Door Guards (DOORS) $500
Rasta 4x4 LR3 Radiator Guards (RADIATOR) $600
Rasta 4x4 LR3 Underbody Guard (UNDERBODY) $350
Rasta 4x4 LR3 Gearbox Guard (GEARBOX) $350
5-Nitto TerraGraps $900+-
Not a poor man's sport. Too rich for me when an already tricked-out D1 or RRC can be had for under $6K.
The LR3 - for me - is just as pictured in their commercials: urbanites with delusions of using the traction control knob during a natural disaster, and for that it fits the bill quite nicely. My LR3 will likely get the tow bar plus wiring and pull a trailer with an older Rover for the trails. It's just too nice of a vehicle to beat all to shit.
D
D Chapman
Guest
D
D Chapman
Guest
JamesWyatt said:
For one, you need to quit shopping at EE when paying those prices....
Two, your D1 was nice at one time, too.
It's all in what you want. A rock buggy cost over 30k to build but it's good for one thing. A D1 modded could cost 6k for a 10-year old truck. If you want a new truck to do what your D1 will do you have to pay the piper. I mean, the same could be said for an old CJ-7. I could buy a jeep for 500.00, weld the rear, buy some tires and be set to go; that shaves 5k off your "D1 example". Money is relative. If 50k for a truck is too much for you, fine. If not, fine. No one is telling you what to buy and your examples have nothing to do with the Bumper thread.
My post does belong in this thread because some people are saying why bother putting an RTE-class bumper on an LR3. I'm just giving my perspective having had built up an expensive rig (D2, not D1) before. I'm not dissing what you did/helped do. If she wants to thrash a $40K-$50K vehicle, I'll happily sit by and enjoy the photos. I'm saying that direction is not for everybody, and I think giving such an opinion is not out of place here, especially when it's already been brought up.
But if you want something more related to the bumper, then straighten out that crooked recovery point.
But if you want something more related to the bumper, then straighten out that crooked recovery point.
nwoods said:
all of you who are curious about LR3 control arms, let me reassure you, Solid cast
elements dont have seams, spot welds or creases for strenght. Its easier to know they are stamped when you have seen it ripped in half.Literally. I'm not speculating. its a 2 part stamping with a welded seam/crimp on each side at 180 degrees. they are darn pricey and not in stock at alotta dealers...that sucks
I've broken one, unintentionally, from a mild impact,I've seen the hollow void insides, looked alot like a soda can....(NO offense lr3 owners!!!)
.... but maybe just a bit thicker.. and I had to pay for repairs so i went over the huge list of parts that needed to be repaired. Control arms, steering stuff, cv & drivetrain damage was expensive and extensive; several sensors and the labor was silly.
just plain silly.
so, moral of the story is: the LR3 is indeed great off road --till it breaks or till you toss it to the unexpected. drive it nice dont thrash on it and be very careful in rock gardens about dragging stuff. esp up front. go slower than the disco in front of you
the rte bumper and this forum will get you and your lr3 far enough to make you drive home smiling... and if youre not driving home,& if its driveline AND suspension related on the front end its gonna cost you thousands. period.
Lr3 is wheeled differently-I wouldnt choose the same lines i would in a disco/rr
It was a really small hit, hence my surprise and dissappointment.ask my wallet.
I do miss the street manners and the cushy ride of the lr3, but feel 'safer' in remote areas in my 04 d2
We're not debating if the bumper looks good or if its valuable. IT IS. Sure, the bumper is better than stock if you plan to wheel your lr3-its as needed as a diff guard for a d1/d2.yes looks are subjective...its a bumper, has recovery point and its not meant to be a fashion statement. if you want sexy, keep the stock plastic, or wear a nice skirt
If I wheeled an lr3, I'd get the rte bumper
however....
It does present the lr3 owner/viewer a more rugged appearance than whats really under the chassis I mean er ah the unibody of the lr3. see, one would look at a
-d1 with a rte bumper,
-a d2 with a rte bumper and
-lr3 with a rte bumper
and yes, the image is rugged, lr3 looks like the d1 & d2 with the rte kit --- but there is a BIG difference in the ability of the machine's design to take abuse, be thrown into rock gardens where things WILL drag, and survive the 'unexpected obstacles'
putting coil springs on an lr3 defeats the purpose, you bought the truck cause it cornered well, had active anti roll technoloy to counter body lean and made the animal you bought. you loose ride height control, cornering,need new shocks etc etc etc $$$$$$
even with an unlimited budget, there is no way to make the LR3 as rugged as a disco2, which is all you can really compare the lr3 to, its pretty far removed from that too, but even more so in a different league than d1, series, etc IMHO
the lr3 was aimed at a 'lighter' market if you will. I doubt it will ever evolve the way the d1s and d2s are evolving within the offroad community. I personally doubt I will ever see an lr3 on 34's or 35s, or with a front locker its just differnt philosophies of design, engineering and you can upgrade all you want, they are always gonna be those thin stampings that can dent, bend, and crack with much less force than the steel used on earlier rovers
my 2 cents..
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The way I see it, stock LR3 bumpers are plastic, and like the plastic end-caps and air dams on my D1 can crack when you hit small shrubs/children, the factory winch cradle is quite ugly and sticks out too far, the factory recovery point is fine, but I hate reaching down into the mud to hook up a line. The ARB solves a few of those problems, but I'm not sure I trust their design, look at the D2 bumpers that twist and detroy the front of the truck wilst winching. RTE makes a good product and I'd trust them to design a winch cradle right, that bumper will also hold up to small impacts a hell of a lot better than a stock bumper, the winch is up higher where it won't get all sorts of shit on at (or at least less shit) the recovery points are easier to get to and easier to attach a shackle to, the bumper still looks allright. I'm sure we all know how much a winch and a couple good recovery points can help any truck out there, the RTE bumper is the most elegant option to do that for the LR3 at the moment.
Personaly I'd rather have a slightly less sexy looking bumper on my $50k rig and have it still look good after a trail run, than keep the uber-sexy stock one and mangle it on a light run. Remember just because you have an RTE bumper doesn't meen you have to do this with it http://discoweb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38172
Personaly I'd rather have a slightly less sexy looking bumper on my $50k rig and have it still look good after a trail run, than keep the uber-sexy stock one and mangle it on a light run. Remember just because you have an RTE bumper doesn't meen you have to do this with it http://discoweb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38172
Here we go again ...............JamesWyatt said:
You're really not presenting even a _sane_ argument, let alone a logical one. Re-read D Chapman's response - no, let me ...
You need to compare 'like with like' to get anything like a real example.
My D3/LR3 cost around $85,000 (all prices here are in Aussie dollars - but the important thing is the relative values). I added:
bull bar & winch
rock-sliders
under-body plates
32" MT off-road tyres (and for God's sake stop whinging about the lack of off-road tyres for the D3 - there are plenty around)
CPU chip upgrade
for a total of around $10,000. That represents about 12% of the purchase price.
Now let's roll back the mists of time here.
When my D1 was brand new it cost $35,000. To get it to a level where I was as confident in it's abilities as I am currently with the D3 I needed:
bull bar ($1500)
rock sliders ($800)
ARB diff lockers ($3000)
Maxi-drive axles ($1600)
up-graded CV joints ($1000)
up-graded turbo (the TDI was pretty gutless in sand) ($1400)
4" lift + 1" spacers ($900)
33" MT tyres ($1200)
all for around $11,400, representing about 33% of the purchase price. So I don't think the D3 has been (relatively) costly - in fact it's been significantly cheaper considering my increased take-home pay.
And the differences between the two? Well, I've used them on the same tracks for both pleasure and competition - mud runs, rock climbs and sand races:
1. The D3 would pull a 1.5 ton caravan up a sand dune faster than the D1 would get up on it's own.
2. The D3 kills the D1 in mud or rock climbs except in conditions where its longer wheelbase catches it out.
3. The D1 would fit 35" tyres, giving quite an advantage. Haven't got the D3 there yet, but I'm working on it - 32.5" at the moment.
4. The D3 didn't need a complete drive-train re-build (plus lockers) to be effective.
5. I can travel 6,000km in the D3 and not feel like I need a spine transplant. On dirt roads.
5. The D1 had far less electronics, so was "simpler" to repair.
To wrap up - the D1/D2 driveline is about as strong as rice pudding, if you really want to push it. I've broken down far more often in my D1 than the D3. On one hand, most times I could jig up some form of repair for the D1 to get me home. However, I'm learning how to do that in the D3, as the only (one or two) breakdowns I've ever had are electroncs-based, and pretty easy to fix, if you know where the circuits are, and where their weak-points lie.
And that's really the crux of it - if you want to wheel one of these hard, you need to learn the car - which means unlearing what you know and replace your gear-pullers with a multi-meter and portable CRO. It won't mechanically break - compared to the axle/diff combo of the D1/D2 it's built like a tank. This rubbish about the D3 "control arms"??? C'mon, who has _any_ faith in the D1 steering arms/axles/diffs/anti-roll bars etc??
(frustrated)
Gordon
That's a bold statement. I can't believe you actually think that putting 35s on the LR3 and maintaining the "stock" driveline is a sensible thing to do. Unless I mis-understood your comment. I can't even imagine how 35s are going to fit in the fender wells of the D3. How 'bout sharing some of your ideas about how you plan on going about this?
And what "rubbish" about the control arms are you referring to? I simply made the statement that they appear to be stamped components. Others have confirmed. How is that rubbish?
And why would you be "frustrated" if you're so sure about your D3?
JamesWyatt said:
I wouldn't let that stop me either. I'd find a 16" or even 15" wheel that fit and have a trail set and street set of tires. When you consider the cost of 5 BFGs, new wheels aren't going to be a whole lot more.
D
D Chapman
Guest
Actually, I think you could fit 35's on a stock LR3; I just would not wheel it like that.
When you go into Low range, you get something like 2" of additional lift. But, if you set something under the jack point and lower the bags, when the jack point hit the object in it's way, the bags will inflate an additional 1" or 2". Once that's done, you can hold the brake and push the ride height button to gain yet another 1" or 2". So, you can inflate the bags to give you a 5" "lift" over the stock ride height.
Now, I would not recommend this at this point and certainly would not run 55mph down the road like this. But, I think with time people will fab new parts for the LR3 to allow it a higher ride height. I mean hell, look at the H2; you can get what, a 13" lift for those things? Sure it looks like dog shit, but it's far away from the stamped steel products from stock.
As for the comments about clearance on the LR3 vs a D1 or D2, I would almost venture to say the LR3 has more where it counts. The lower control arms are the kicker, but that's only at your 4-corners. Although these are vulnerable areas, how many times have you been stuck in your D1/D2 while only sitting on your diff? How about those tie rods?
This bumper is just the start. Rasta has been making some goofy stuff for a little while now, but this bumper part of the first generation stuff coming for the LR3. As a little more time passes and parts fail then other tools or diagnostics help will come available.
If you look back, you can find these same discussions going on about the D2. Now, look at what can be done to the D2 today.... Same with the D1.... Came with the coil sprung RRC....
You can do more with a D1. Stock for stock, the LR3 will kick the D1's ass in almost every single possible way, both on-road and off. That does not mean I'm ready to buy one....But I do think it's going to be interesting to see what all becomes available in the next fer years; and by the time the Defender sits down on this design, it's hard to tell what direction it has taken.
When you go into Low range, you get something like 2" of additional lift. But, if you set something under the jack point and lower the bags, when the jack point hit the object in it's way, the bags will inflate an additional 1" or 2". Once that's done, you can hold the brake and push the ride height button to gain yet another 1" or 2". So, you can inflate the bags to give you a 5" "lift" over the stock ride height.
Now, I would not recommend this at this point and certainly would not run 55mph down the road like this. But, I think with time people will fab new parts for the LR3 to allow it a higher ride height. I mean hell, look at the H2; you can get what, a 13" lift for those things? Sure it looks like dog shit, but it's far away from the stamped steel products from stock.
As for the comments about clearance on the LR3 vs a D1 or D2, I would almost venture to say the LR3 has more where it counts. The lower control arms are the kicker, but that's only at your 4-corners. Although these are vulnerable areas, how many times have you been stuck in your D1/D2 while only sitting on your diff? How about those tie rods?
This bumper is just the start. Rasta has been making some goofy stuff for a little while now, but this bumper part of the first generation stuff coming for the LR3. As a little more time passes and parts fail then other tools or diagnostics help will come available.
If you look back, you can find these same discussions going on about the D2. Now, look at what can be done to the D2 today.... Same with the D1.... Came with the coil sprung RRC....
You can do more with a D1. Stock for stock, the LR3 will kick the D1's ass in almost every single possible way, both on-road and off. That does not mean I'm ready to buy one....But I do think it's going to be interesting to see what all becomes available in the next fer years; and by the time the Defender sits down on this design, it's hard to tell what direction it has taken.
A few good faith questions re: the LR3:
Can you trail repair an airbag? Driveline components? Half-shaft (CV)? Diff(s)? Driveshaft/Ujoint?
What I'm wondering is, if you had electronics failure, will the truck still operate enough to get you out of trouble, assuming the mechanicals were still in order?
Daniel, I'm talking about fitting 35s in such a way that it would actually work.
Can you trail repair an airbag? Driveline components? Half-shaft (CV)? Diff(s)? Driveshaft/Ujoint?
What I'm wondering is, if you had electronics failure, will the truck still operate enough to get you out of trouble, assuming the mechanicals were still in order?
Daniel, I'm talking about fitting 35s in such a way that it would actually work.
D
D Chapman
Guest
noee said:
Not sure about the airbag. I don't know enough about them to understand them. I guess it depends on what breaks/rips. If the actual bag tore, it almost seems like a tire patch would fix it... An air line is an easy fix. But still I do not know too much about them and have never held one on my hand or taken one apart....
The Driveline is no different than any other truck. What is nice, though, is it is tucked so far up it would never get hit. .
Axles are just like your Mazda. Basically just a half-shaft. I don't know how many different shafts there are or if they are the same front and rear. But, it looks like a simple fix should one break.
noee said:
One would think any new vehicle coming off the line has a limp mode. But personally I have no idea. I think it's like 28 different CPU's??? That's crap... But I'm betting 25 of them are for shit like Navigation, cruise control, lumbar seats, seat belt warnings, bluetooth, automatic headlights................
If the CPUs that deal with the truck running are limited to the transmission and ECM, I don't really see the problem as every car since 1999 has them.... But I do not know if that is the case here..
noee said:
Rip out the air bags, fit coil springs, add new lower control arms - just like a Toyota 4-Runner, Xtera, H2, H3, etc.... I don't know about the strength in the stock half-shafts, but people in the UK are using them in their D2's as "heavy duty" axles according to a certain LRM editor.
sure, when you FIRST start taking stock Lr3 and rolling on 34/35 tires they 'work'
lets see how these riggs do with a few dozen treks off road in the muck
... ... ... ...
what makes you all think LR3 is suddenly equipped with much stronger break points than 24 spline of d2? what makes you suspect that the weak assed diffs that came on d1/d2 are now 'resolved' for lr3? not everyone is gonna have the factory hd axel/rear locker option
I would think anything bigger than a 33/34 would be a negative choice for stock axels on any rig that ships from the factory on 29 or 30 inch tires. Auto makers sell cars for profit. madly over engineering is NOT profitable. simple.
I am not arguing that you can fit a 34 or 35 under there.
I suspect it will be a while before anyone starts to make a longer control arm for lr3
so dont hold ur breath
if it was MY truck I'd not do it on 35s anywhere where I was too far from civilization. I do doubt any claims that the LR OE axels are stout enough to rock as HD, of course the LRM is reporting the 1st sighting of folks running non stock stuff, we'll have to see what all these LR3 can do over time as far as reliability and I suspect we will all see at the rally.
metal and stress fatigue wont set in initially. but eventually we'll all know
lets see how these riggs do with a few dozen treks off road in the muck
... ... ... ...
what makes you all think LR3 is suddenly equipped with much stronger break points than 24 spline of d2? what makes you suspect that the weak assed diffs that came on d1/d2 are now 'resolved' for lr3? not everyone is gonna have the factory hd axel/rear locker option
I would think anything bigger than a 33/34 would be a negative choice for stock axels on any rig that ships from the factory on 29 or 30 inch tires. Auto makers sell cars for profit. madly over engineering is NOT profitable. simple.
I am not arguing that you can fit a 34 or 35 under there.
I suspect it will be a while before anyone starts to make a longer control arm for lr3
so dont hold ur breath
if it was MY truck I'd not do it on 35s anywhere where I was too far from civilization. I do doubt any claims that the LR OE axels are stout enough to rock as HD, of course the LRM is reporting the 1st sighting of folks running non stock stuff, we'll have to see what all these LR3 can do over time as far as reliability and I suspect we will all see at the rally.
metal and stress fatigue wont set in initially. but eventually we'll all know
Let it be said that the first time I saw a tricked out D1 bashing through the woods I thought that was crazy taking that $$$$ car through the mud. A couple of years later I was right in the mud with the same guy. Just because The LR3 carries a big price tag does not stop people from choosing to wheel it. Money is realative. Remember how Overpriced the D2 where yet no one stopped wheeling them.
Give the aftermarket time to work out some of the details and you WILL see an LR3 hanging with and most likely spanking some Discos. Product availability is a function of demand. The more demand for a product the more likely it will be produced. As more people wheel the LR3 the more demand there will be fore aftermarket support. And the products will be developed to meet the demands. It is really quite simple. Remember when $G and ARB were your only options in the Land Rover aftermarket. Now there are dozens of shops turning out all sorts of product.
Also some of you guys need to pay closer attention to what is possible. If she wanted she could have Dana 60's front and rear and any tire size that would fit. Not that it would retain the ride of the factory setup, but it could be done. Time, money, and imagination are all that is needed. Some will say it is a waste of time. I heard it all the time when I was working on my first Range Rover. Others will applaud the foresight. I am in the later group.
D. If she can get the LR3 back up here for some more R&D I think some of those thing could get done
October is comming fast though!!!
Give the aftermarket time to work out some of the details and you WILL see an LR3 hanging with and most likely spanking some Discos. Product availability is a function of demand. The more demand for a product the more likely it will be produced. As more people wheel the LR3 the more demand there will be fore aftermarket support. And the products will be developed to meet the demands. It is really quite simple. Remember when $G and ARB were your only options in the Land Rover aftermarket. Now there are dozens of shops turning out all sorts of product.
Also some of you guys need to pay closer attention to what is possible. If she wanted she could have Dana 60's front and rear and any tire size that would fit. Not that it would retain the ride of the factory setup, but it could be done. Time, money, and imagination are all that is needed. Some will say it is a waste of time. I heard it all the time when I was working on my first Range Rover. Others will applaud the foresight. I am in the later group.
D. If she can get the LR3 back up here for some more R&D I think some of those thing could get done
October is comming fast though!!!
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