Seriously? You expect them to compete with J**p Wranglers? That's YOUR idea of a sales plan? I'm sure it make sense to you, but have you ever created a sales plan for UK built premium vehicle for sale in the USA, for example? A Defender was never a competitor for a Wrangler. Have you compared a Cherokee to an Evoque (if you can at all, they aren't in the same league. No, let's talk sense here, puhleeese...
Disco 5: Let the depression set in
- Thread starter ERover82
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Seriously? You expect them to compete with J**p Wranglers? That's YOUR idea of a sales plan? I'm sure it make sense to you, but have you ever created a sales plan for UK built premium vehicle for sale in the USA, for example? A Defender was never a competitor for a Wrangler. Have you compared a Cherokee to an Evoque (if you can at all, they aren't in the same league. No, let's talk sense here, puhleeese...
Incorrect.
It's very origin was deliberate mutation of the form. By definition, the Defender has always competed for survival with the Wrangler, but never on a level playing field, and that was the failure.
For what purpose were they and their progenitors imported, if not to provide an alternative utility vehicle?
The Defender has survived because markets allowed that survival; and yet, what may well be the largest market for such a product was consciously strangled by indecision and countless excuses. What now can it offer that is not already thoroughly provided? What aspect of design will allow survival?
What can it do that cannot currently be done? That matters, because it no longer has an advantage of irrational obsession. Of course it's a superior vehicle, but that's irrelevant. That's not enough at this point.
It is a wonderful example of mismanagement, and how to doom a product decades in advance. The United States never needed the Defender. The Defender needed the United States.
The problem is, it needed it twenty years ago. What it needs now is re-branding. All it has left is the party trick of being an incredibly versatile platform, and that's not going to roll up on our shores overnight.
Land Rover is right to stop and think about what needs to be done. If they will only realize that the problem has always been marketing, and lead slowly into a new product with a new image feeding upon old notions of adventure that manufacturers have left behind, they might have a production case eventually.
For now, they've got an old farm vehicle that just won't survive a fresh birth in a nation of bigger trucks, smaller utility vehicles, and new expectations.
The fact that it would be very useful doesn't matter, because people don't care. They never did. You've got to build that awareness over time; not let it rot away.
Cheers,
Kennith
Quick question: when was Land Rover at its peak in terms of their vehicle line up?
If you think about it for a minute I'm sure that you can infer my follow up question.
If you think about it for a minute I'm sure that you can infer my follow up question.
Defender,discovery,RRC/p38? So mid 90s
Jeep was also at its peak at that time with an identical line up. Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee
We don't really need a sales plan. They sell themselves. Believe it or not, WE are not the target market. Last year you would have to wait for a Range Rover. Maybe like 3 or 4 months. People would come in and say I know I have to wait for it and all,can I order two right now?
We don't need a plan. They sell themselves. People know they have to wait for a Range Rover. They would like to order a couple of them right now. Compete with JEEP ? Let Kia do that.
You should be able to get a good price on one cause nobody buys them anymore since the Discovery Sport came out. The Discovery Sport is so much better that there really isn't any reason to keep building the Evoque.
That sounds like a production problem.
There are not 200k new Jeep Wranglers being wheeled. There is no reason that LR does not eat into that market. My point is that they could be selling significantly more but have no problem just selling some and making some money.
JLR went from having China as the largest market back to the UK. If you guys seriously think that small sales numbers in the US is good for the company then there is your problem. They need to market to the US and get ad many buyers as possible. Having essentially a mega luxury 5 seater and a knock down 5 seater(RRS)that is identical to their 7 seater (LR4/5) and two small extremely high priced SUVs is not enough here. The Defender replacement needs to be marketed to the people buying Jeep Wranglers who are only buying them for the image and idea that they convey.
Maybe you guys have memory loss, but I remember the mid 90s to early 2000s when soccermoms were buying SUVs instead of minivans even though minivans made more sense. Nobody wants to look like they've given up on dreams and being cool and adventurous. That's what the Defender replacement needs to be. Potentially capable like the Wrangler, but just a few notches above with the leather and sound and interior space and a slightly more distinguished look the way it always has.
But you guys are so right, they sell themselves so they may as well dilute the brand and make their vehicles look like the rest of the market.
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I think that when you start comparing sales numbers you need to remember your not comparing apples to apples here. Your saying that they should be able to produce as many units as Jeep? But Jeep is in no way as technically advanced as the trucks we build. We have so many modules communicating on the networks that now we have more Can Networks, Like a powertrain High Speed Can Network and a Chassis High Speed network. We build with finer materials. It's just going to take longer to create a Dash board out of leather than it is to mold one out of plastic. Same with door panels. Seats with climate control are going to take longer to make than the shit your going to find in a Jeep.
Kenny...come on man. The Defender didn't need the U.S. market. That's why they told the dept of transportation to get bent about the pass side air bags and bumper regulations.
Kenny...come on man. The Defender didn't need the U.S. market. That's why they told the dept of transportation to get bent about the pass side air bags and bumper regulations.
I'm trying to figure out how the Defender "needed" the US. If they "needed" the US why did LR not vigorously pursue a design that satisfied US safety and environmental regulations? They sold for a few years and when the going got hard for LR, they pulled them from the shelves so-to-speak.
The US never needed the Defender and the Defender never needed the US. (The subsequent demise of the Defender could not be blamed on it's lackluster sales in the US.)
The US never needed the Defender and the Defender never needed the US. (The subsequent demise of the Defender could not be blamed on it's lackluster sales in the US.)
Back in 1900 and frozen to death maybe. The NAS D90 wasn't a J**p competitor! Having worked at both the old and new J**p plants back in the 90s those things were cranked out like cookies and not rivetted together like a NAS 90/110 was. They weren't pitched at people who'd buy a Wrangler. Mine was $36,000! A spec'd Jeep? $20K.
Sure, I agree. The problem is that while the vehicles were really excellent, LR wasn't a good business back in the 90s. I think we'd all agree that the current product line is headed in a direction away from our desires, but LR is a healthy business which is making some decent coin.
I'm sure that the next Defender will suck, but it probably won't matter in the slightest. People will continue to buy the current LR vehicles and the Defender will be a distant memory.
Have you looked at what's available on a Wrangler lately and what the price tag is? The market is there for the taking. There is just no effort for taking.
Again, you're failing to recognize the lack of a level playing field and foolish planning.
This is an imported vehicle that required more extensive modification than usual to be allowed in the U.S. market; and even then required a constant fight to remain legal.
That price difference wasn't arbitrary. It was never given a fair chance in this market, and that falls mainly on Land Rover; even if a few other factors were at play.
The Land Rover utility vehicles have historically been like the show "Firefly" here: Broadcast at odd hours, on varying days, skipping weeks, with some episodes missing and others out of order. It never stood a chance.
Actually, it was worse. To equal the Series and Defender blunders, the show would have had to be billed as a police drama, named "Tarzan and Friends", filmed in Brazil, and delivered on Betamax tapes.
...and if you thought Defenders weren't cranked out like cookies before the NAS mods, your head wasn't in the sand, it was sealed in concrete. Rivets aren't rocket science. It's a more useful vehicle by design and platform flexibility, not by construction methods.
Cheers,
Kennith
And you clearly don't understand the economics of vehicle manufacture! When I wrote about rivetting them together, that equates to COST of production. Not all those wonderful "flexibility" you post about. As with GM, back in the 50s, they had so many varieties it made your head spin - and cost them $Ms in overhead. Plus, now the Defender shares NOTHING as a set of common components with any other Land Rover product, which makes the economics of production even worse!
Saw a Disco Sport yesterday.
Thought it was an evoke.
Surprised to see DISCOVERY across the front.
Maybe it was an Evoke Discovery.
Bank vault windows, super great for off road.
Or even for "sporty" interstate driving; nothing like not being able to see jack-shit at 120mph.
No love from me.
But I am neither an auto company executive, nor a marketing specialist, unlike many of the posters here.
Thought it was an evoke.
Surprised to see DISCOVERY across the front.
Maybe it was an Evoke Discovery.
Bank vault windows, super great for off road.
Or even for "sporty" interstate driving; nothing like not being able to see jack-shit at 120mph.
No love from me.
But I am neither an auto company executive, nor a marketing specialist, unlike many of the posters here.