Right
I almost never buy from a dealer, but the same reasons still apply for private party.
The first case is a typical used car deal, the second is potentially a fun project and/or a friggin steal.
INEOS Grenadier
- Thread starter ERover82
- Start date
Right
I almost never buy from a dealer, but the same reasons still apply for private party.
The first case is a typical used car deal, the second is potentially a fun project and/or a friggin steal.
Key word is quality.
With new, you're paying for a few years of warranty, and hopefully another decade of peace of mind.
However as @DiscoHasBeen pointed out, new is no guarantee of quality.
If you're buying something used that's "cool", there's gonna be a ton of online info about it (this place is case in point
). You thus have the ability to be super educated about what you're in for and if it's worth the headache, DIY or otherwise.
All very accurate. However, the Grenadier was designed by the same group that did the Mini’s and G-wagons. It is also built in a new facility, with additional steps taken that we’re all quite familiar with from LR Series & 110 restorations - like galvanized frame & even body panels. The motor is solid (although modern) and the axles and t-case heavy duty. So to me, it would seem the Grenadier is 10x the value of even the very best 110 rebuild/resto. Expensive as hell? Yes, but you’re still not paying crazy 110 money. And personally, as a “new” vehicle I don’t see the use/performance riskKey word is quality.
With new, you're paying for a few years of warranty, and hopefully another decade of peace of mind.
However as @DiscoHasBeen pointed out, new is no guarantee of quality.
If you're buying something used that's "cool", there's gonna be a ton of online info about it (this place is case in point
I have stated I was always on the fence about this and was waiting for pricing to see if it held my interest. It is cool, but it does not inspire the "desire" which we feel when we see that car that we must have and are willing to pay any price. My first Disocvery was a 1997, with an MSRP of 37k, which is just under $70,000 in today's dollars - suprisingly close to the base Ineos. I think I just started making 60k when I bought that - to get financing I actually had to bring documentation of a raise I just got - only one dealer in my area found a way to finance me. It was a financially stupid purchase but I was young, in love the vehicle, and didn't care. I was just that passionate about it and "had to have it".
Skip to the Ineos Grenadier, the base model, which is logically better in every way than the Discovery and similary priced Defender 90 that was next to it on the lot, and is only 3k more when adjusting for inflation. It should make this a comparatively simple purchase. However, it does not inspire any such level of desire. It does not have that green oval logo I somehow coveted. It does not stir up images and connection to the Land Rover Series I that I giggled at as a kid watching "The Gods Must Be Crazy". It does not have any heritage or history or connection to anything what-so-ever. It has a BMW motor when I don't like BMW's (no idea why, I just don't). It simply a boxy looking truck that is a copy of a G-Wagon, Defender, and a few others amalgamated together. When I sit in current my 1995 Discovery, it feels good and it gives me smiles. The Grenadier did no such thing during the test drive. It was just a truck lumbering along and riding similarly to my Discovery, but doing so while lacking any soul and definately lacking that persistent smell of uniquely fake leather that only Series 1 Discovery's have.
When push comes to shove the heart doesn't want it, maybe at any price, but definately not at this price. Frankly, I think I said this i an earlier post, it makes the 53k base model Defender 110 look more interesting to me than it ever has before, but, that ain't happening, either, due to fear of reliability.
There are others who definately dig on it, and I say good for them. We'll see how this all plays out and maybe revisit the used market in a handful of years if my Discovery dies.
Tom
Skip to the Ineos Grenadier, the base model, which is logically better in every way than the Discovery and similary priced Defender 90 that was next to it on the lot, and is only 3k more when adjusting for inflation. It should make this a comparatively simple purchase. However, it does not inspire any such level of desire. It does not have that green oval logo I somehow coveted. It does not stir up images and connection to the Land Rover Series I that I giggled at as a kid watching "The Gods Must Be Crazy". It does not have any heritage or history or connection to anything what-so-ever. It has a BMW motor when I don't like BMW's (no idea why, I just don't). It simply a boxy looking truck that is a copy of a G-Wagon, Defender, and a few others amalgamated together. When I sit in current my 1995 Discovery, it feels good and it gives me smiles. The Grenadier did no such thing during the test drive. It was just a truck lumbering along and riding similarly to my Discovery, but doing so while lacking any soul and definately lacking that persistent smell of uniquely fake leather that only Series 1 Discovery's have.
When push comes to shove the heart doesn't want it, maybe at any price, but definately not at this price. Frankly, I think I said this i an earlier post, it makes the 53k base model Defender 110 look more interesting to me than it ever has before, but, that ain't happening, either, due to fear of reliability.
There are others who definately dig on it, and I say good for them. We'll see how this all plays out and maybe revisit the used market in a handful of years if my Discovery dies.
Tom
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One last thing - If you are watching the Ineos Owners USA facebook group you might have seen this arleady, but if not, here is the final blow. The dealers will be allowed to add markups to these. A few people have asked and been told that dealers can add "fees" to this, such as handling fees or installation fees for accessories. They are also not legally bound to honor the MSRP either, just encouraged to do so by Ineos. MSRP has been announced, but actual price to be paid is still very much up in the air.
That may indeed be a deal-killer.
That's also part of why I want to order a truck no one else would want.
I can see it now....the "Arizona Package" which will consist of two thin tan pinstripes down the side, my coveted tinted windows, mudflaps, and a $10,000 price tag.
Hopefully this will not get ugly. I just can't see spending $60k on a Wrangler when this is within reach.
Are you going base model on the Ineos? I don't know if there are dealer markups, but a base 4-door Rubicon is 47k, 55k if you add on the 35" tire package. I think the gap between these two is damn huge. 47k-72k base for base. 47k - 78k if you add lockers on the Grenadier. To get 35's on the Grenadier, if that is your goal, is who knows how much in suspension changes plus a new set of tires (and maybe rims). Or did you option up a Wrangler to $60k with more or going on current dealer markups?
I don't think these are in the same category anymore. From a value perspective, unless you need the higher towing and payload capacity, the Ineos is too expensive to compare.
Base model Grenadier = $71,500
free white paint
free 17" steel wheels
free utility trim (cloth & vinyl seats)
only add-on is diff locks front & rear (not including BGF AT tires, just the base Bridgestone road tires) = $2250
Total = $73,750
That's a bare-fuckin-bones truck for $73,750 not including any dealer markups.
Base radio, manual cloth/vinyl seats with no heat or ventilation, no floor mats, no winch, no roof rack, steel wheels, shitty tires that will need to be replaced immediately (which is the idea of not paying the extra $950 for the BFG ATs, or an extra $600 for the BFGs with the diff lock package). You'd spend another $2000 putting 5 real off-road 33" tires on there.
So call it $73,750 + $2000 tires = $75,750 entry fee for bare-bones base model with lockers and tires. Plus delivery, dealer bullshit fees, taxes.
free white paint
free 17" steel wheels
free utility trim (cloth & vinyl seats)
only add-on is diff locks front & rear (not including BGF AT tires, just the base Bridgestone road tires) = $2250
Total = $73,750
That's a bare-fuckin-bones truck for $73,750 not including any dealer markups.
Base radio, manual cloth/vinyl seats with no heat or ventilation, no floor mats, no winch, no roof rack, steel wheels, shitty tires that will need to be replaced immediately (which is the idea of not paying the extra $950 for the BFG ATs, or an extra $600 for the BFGs with the diff lock package). You'd spend another $2000 putting 5 real off-road 33" tires on there.
So call it $73,750 + $2000 tires = $75,750 entry fee for bare-bones base model with lockers and tires. Plus delivery, dealer bullshit fees, taxes.
Why do
That said, you can buy a 4-door Bronco on 35s that is done relatively okay at the factory. You'll have to carry a welder and a stash of tie rods on the trail, but that's okay.
To get anything useful from a Wrangler on 35s you'll need to replace most of the suspension. You will still be left with a vehicle that rides like shit on pavement (which matters if you don't live closer than 500 miles away from your favorite spot), has zero body rigidity, doesn't have a structural roof so you have to build something for carrying crap on top of it (and you'll have to because they have amazingly little interior space).
What about a winch? Would you be hopeful that you can fit one aftermarket? My concern is the difficulty of doing this, but I have not researched it yet. I know to add it, you had to inlude a $1650 electical option. So it was like $5700 for a winch.
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I agree with you on this point. If you actually want to use this for an overlanding scenario with plenty of gear I think it has stronger merits. One article I saw only compared it against the Defender 130 (NOT 110), Land Cruiser, and some G-Wagon model for 140k since they were the only ones with similar payload. I suppose you could throw in the LX600 and Toyota Sequoia into that mix. In any case, at that point, it is a bargain versus the competition that can match payload capacity.
Oh, you want a winch?
That'll be another $5735.
Good luck trying to fit a winch to a stock truck. You'd have to fab your own winch bumper and jeapordize the new vehicle warranty. Best to just suck it up and fork over $5735 for the OEM setup.
Now we're at $81,485 plus delivery, dealer, and tax...but we have a winch.
You just can't make a good argument, Bill.
Warranty? It is 3 years. Could you live without a winch for three years? I know you do.
Your LR4 didn't have a winch until (IIRC) a few months ago. Your old D1, as I remember it from 20 years ago, had neither. Maybe your D2 did.
It is neither difficult nor very expensive to add one to any of these trucks. Why would it be difficult for a Grenadier? If you took your time looking under/inside the front bumper, you'd see plenty of space to install one.
I do agree that a factory winch (as it stands now) is unbelievably overpriced option. I am sure we'll see an ARB bumper in a $1.5-2k range soon, and together with a decent winch it will still be under a half of what Ineos wants now. There are _some_ considerations, mostly due to the battery being under the rear seat, but nothing difficult.
I think, after seeing how people configure their notional Grenadiers, I'll aim for a configuration almost nobody wants, so the dealer would be more agreeable.
I'm surprised you all are talking $ here. Let's be real, owning this vehicle isn't about cost vs return, it about the uniqueness. Have something few people are going to own. It's a natural extension of being a LR owner. Because if we're talking overlanding and practical. I have about 53k into this truck right now. OME lift, tires, front bumper and winch, rear seat removed and molle panel installed. For about 4.5k I could have a rooftop tent and kitchen (goes in the gull wing of the topper). Easy access to parts and service any where I go....
That is a sweet setup, well done.
That being said, the Ineos just doesn't do it for me. I don't care about unique, I care about how a car makes me feel. This one, for whatever reason, gives me zero feels. When I look at a TRD 4 Runner or Tacoma, I get the feels. When I look at a Bronco decked out, I get the feels. When I look at my old Discovery, I get the feels. When I look at, and when I drove the Ineos, I get no feels. No feels gets no money unless it is a really smart buy, then it gets the smart thoughts which then gives a different kind of feels. This car does none of that. I am more excited about my daughters FJ Cruiser with 250k miles on it than I would be a new Grenadier in the driveway. That silly thing is even appreciating. It gets all kinds of feels.
You hit the nail on the head right here.
No one of us would be here if we made purely rational decisions.
Oh Peter....surely you understand that I make my arguments from my perspective? You know I don't do the afternoon club outings, I go out by myself to absolutely nowhere AZ and I consider a winch to be a requirement (after having been stuck in the middle of nowhere and realizing winch $$$ < recovery $$$). Tomorrow and Saturday I'm exploring the Verde River only about 35 miles north of my house but I'll be solo and SOL if I'm stuck. Two weeks ago I was miles up a wash outside of Lake Havasu City and I got good and stuck with no one anywhere nearby and no cell signal.
I didn't have a winch on my D1 because I couldn't throw a couple grand at it back then at that point in my life and all I did back in 1999-2004 was little off road trips. Life was different 20 year ago. My D2 had a $G bumper and winch for over 10 of the 12 years I owned it. My LR4 got its winch a little over a year ago, a year and a half after I bought it.
Spending $76K on a base truck with literally one option (lockers) and better tires and then waiting 3 years for the warranty to expire so I can modify it for my own winch setup is ludicrous. My whole premise is that it's a pretty damn basic truck for >$70K. Yes, the mechanicals are there but so is the nickel & diming for basics. A buddy of mine bought a Tesla Plaid Model S and we give him endless shit for spending $160K on a car that didn't come with floor mats. This Ineos deal is on the same track.
What is the magical configuration of your Grenadier that no one else will want and the dealer will excuse you from the bending over a barrel? Base model smurf blue with mudflaps?
I felt exactly the opposite. We loved our '96 D1 and have never found a suitable replacement for it, yet. The Grendier felt remarkably similar to a D1 and was very comfortable. If I were to stomach the price, I'm not at all concerned it may be missing luxury features as the capabilty and utility are why I'm even considering it.
Oh, and the D1's had Connolly Leather, not fake. And it's still pristine in my '95 LWB. In fact, I'm fully convinced that synthetic materials are a much better choice than modern "leather", especially for a vehicle I plan to drive for 20 years.