Ok, this is BS.

knewsom

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2008
5,262
0
La Mancha, CA
from: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/27/us/politics/bosses-offering-timely-advice-how-to-vote.html?hp&_r=0
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Here?s a Memo From the Boss: Vote This Way

David Manning/Reuters
David A. Siegel, in charge of Westgate Resorts, wrote an anti-Obama letter to 7,000 employees.
By STEVEN GREENHOUSE
Published: October 26, 2012

Imagine getting a letter from the boss, telling you how to vote.

Until 2010, federal law barred companies from using corporate money to endorse and campaign for political candidates ? and that included urging employees to support specific politicians.

But the Supreme Court?s Citizens United decision has freed companies from those restrictions, and now several major companies, including Georgia-Pacific and Cintas, have sent letters or information packets to their employees suggesting ? and sometimes explicitly recommending ? how they should vote this fall.

In these letters, the executives complain about the costs of overregulation, the health care overhaul and possible tax increases. Some letters warn that if President Obama is re-elected, the company could be harmed, potentially jeopardizing jobs.

David A. Siegel, 77, chief executive of Westgate Resorts, a major time-share company, wrote to his 7,000 employees, saying that if Mr. Obama won, the prospect of higher taxes could hurt the company?s future.

?The economy doesn?t currently pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job, however, is another four years of the same presidential administration,? Mr. Siegel wrote. ?If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, as our current president plans, I will have no choice but to reduce the size of this company.?

In an interview, Mr. Siegel said he was not ordering his employees to vote his way. ?There?s no way I can pressure anybody,? he said. ?I?m not in the voting booth with them.?

Mr. Siegel added: ?I really wanted them to know how I felt four more years under President Obama was going to affect them. It would be no different from telling your children: ?Eat your spinach. It?s good for you.? ?

Dave Robertson, the president of Koch Industries, sent an information packet and letter this month to more than 30,000 employees of a subsidiary, Georgia-Pacific, a paper and pulp company. The letter attacked government subsidies for ?a few favored cronies? as well as ?unprecedented regulatory burdens on businesses.?

The letter added, ?Many of our more than 50,000 U.S. employees and contractors may suffer the consequences, including higher gasoline prices, runaway inflation and other ills.?

The Georgia-Pacific letter, first reported by In These Times, included a flier listing several candidates endorsed by the Koch brothers, the conservative billionaires, beginning with Mitt Romney, as well as opinion articles that the brothers had written.

Travis McKinney, a forklift driver for Georgia-Pacific in Portland, Ore., said the company?s political packet had spurred widespread discussion. ?It leaves a bad taste,? Mr. McKinney said. ?I won?t even wear my Obama pin to work because of the mailer.?

In a statement, Koch Industries said its mailing contained pieces of information ?we believe are important for our employees to know about.? The company said the letter was in no way intimidation: ?We make it clear that any decision about which candidates to support belongs solely to our employees.?

Other companies whose top executives have sent out anti-Obama letters include Rite-Hite, a manufacturer of industrial equipment based in Milwaukee, and ASG Software Solutions, based in Naples, Fla.

Many corporate executives say they have stepped up their political activities to counter organized labor?s efforts on behalf of Mr. Obama and other Democrats. Even before Citizens United, unions were allowed to promote candidates to their members. Democrats and Republicans alike acknowledged the effectiveness of labor?s political efforts.

Mr. Romney has himself urged business owners to appeal to their employees. In a conference call in June organized by the National Federation of Independent Business, he said, ?I hope you make it very clear to your employees what you believe is in the best interest of your enterprise and therefore their job and their future in the upcoming elections.?

Larry Gold, associate general counsel of the A.F.L.-C.I.O., said some of the recent employer letters, by hinting at the possible loss of employees? jobs, appeared to cross the line into improper coercion. Federal law and the laws of several states bar anyone from coercing or intimidating voters into voting a certain way.

But Bradley A. Smith, a Republican former member of the Federal Election Commission and a professor at Capital University Law School, disagreed, saying letters like those sent by the companies were not firm threats to fire anyone if Mr. Obama won.

According to the Citizens United ruling, companies may recommend candidates to employees, said Eugene Volokh, a law professor at University of California, Los Angeles.

?If the employer wants to say, ?This candidate is good or bad for our business and therefore good or bad for you, the employee, that?s permissible ? that?s protected by the First Amendment,? Professor Volokh said. ?But if the employer threatens to fire you based on how you vote, that?s not protected.?

But many liberal legal experts fear that employees could be discouraged from exercising their rights to free speech.

?The concern here is there is an unavoidable power disparity between management and employees,? said Adam Skaggs, senior counsel at the liberal Brennan Center for Justice. ?Put yourself in the shoes of an employee at any of those companies. Are you going to be comfortable putting an Obama bumper sticker on your car and driving into the company parking lot? If you?re in a small community with a big employer, will you feel uncomfortable about putting up a yard sign for a candidate your boss doesn?t favor??

Richard Lacks, chief executive of Lacks Enterprises, an auto parts company based in Grand Rapids, Mich., wrote to his 2,300 employees this month warning that an Obama victory would mean higher health care costs and higher taxes that would eat into their paychecks. ?It is important that in November you vote to improve your standard of living and that will be through smaller government and less government,? he wrote.

Scott D. Farmer, chief executive of Cintas, the uniform supply company, sent a letter to his company?s 30,000 employees on Oct. 19, denouncing the Affordable Care Act and saying it ?amounts to the single largest tax on Americans and business in history.? He warned employees that ?the overregulation that business is facing today from the various administrative agencies such as the Environmental Protection Agency? and the National Labor Relations Board ?is suffocating many companies.?

Mr. Farmer added, ?This uncertainty felt by many of our customers about their ability to run and grow their businesses prevents them from adding jobs which hurts our ability to grow and add jobs.?

Asked about Mr. Farmer?s letter, Greg Hart, Cintas?s vice president for government affairs, responded, ?The communication was not an attempt to suggest to employees how to vote, but rather it was sent to help partners make an informed decision.?

Election law experts did not point to any corporate efforts this year to urge employees to back Mr. Obama, although corporations have at times politicked for Democratic candidates. In 2010, Harrah?s, the casino company, urged its employees to go to the polls to re-elect Nevada?s senior senator, contending that ?waking up to the defeat of Harry Reid Nov. 3 will be devastating.?

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There are times when we have to set aside partisan bullshit. This is one of them. We can't allow management to bully their employees into voting one way or another, I don't care if they're pro Obama or pro Romney, or even pro Buddy Roemer (who, by the way, should have been your guy).

This is pretty clearly a subversion of democracy and intimidation/coercion. I know that's already illegal, but stuff that can be seen as "borderline" is never going to get prosecuted, and will DEFINITELY impinge on the freedom of speech of employees. Would YOU feel comfortable driving to work with an Obama sticker on your car if you got an email from your boss like this? Would you be constantly looking over your shoulder, paranoid that they'd find some reason to fire you because you defied the boss' politics? I know I would. ...and I'd likely get fired too, because I'm not the type to turn tail and hide like that (I say outspoken, you say loudmouth; potato, potatoe).

We need a constitutional amendment to sort this mess out. That much is clear. Please vote and write letters accordingly.
 

lynchee

Well-known member
Jun 21, 2006
256
0
Goffstown, NH
I don't see what the big deal is. If someone is an Obama supporter, I assume it would piss them off and encourage them to get off their ass and vote.
It's not like he has anyway of knowing how anyone votes.
 

RBBailey

Well-known member
Jul 26, 2004
6,758
3
Oregon
www.flickr.com
A letter? That's nothing...

I get a face to face visit in my classroom, and if I say I'm not voting exactly how they want, they tell me not to teach about government and politics -- in U.S. History. They inspect the items I have on my walls and they tell me I can't wear buttons or shirts or have any right-wing paraphernalia in my class. (I have no clue what they are talking about.) In the mean time, the other history teacher was taking kids to Obama rallies, crying over his speeches in class, and having the kids design t-shirts for an Obama campaign contest -- she was actually awarded a social studies teacher of the year specifically for doing that stuff in her class.

During the run-up to last year's stupid strike, we were told that it was a perfectly normal democratic thing to be forced to vote in public, by standing up, yes or no. And when the vote was taken, it was pretty close, they didn't even count, they just cheered and cried tears of joy and declared that we were on strike.

Then, they came after us in our classrooms for not voting for a strike. My close friend, a leftist, was stopped in the hallway and told that he had just lost all respect. Another close friend, a Christian middle-isle type (voted for Obama) was stopped in the hallway and was actually yelled at to the point where kids who saw what was happening were crying and running away.

A letter from your boss? So what? He's the boss. It's not my style, I don't really agree with it, but so what?
 
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knewsom

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2008
5,262
0
La Mancha, CA
Your union can't fire you for whatever reason they dream up because they don't like your politics. They can make your life miserable, sure, but they can't hold your livelihood hostage. That's they key point here.
 

JohnB

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2007
2,295
12
Oregon
RBBailey said:
A letter? That's nothing...

I get a face to face visit in my classroom, and if I say I'm not voting exactly how they want, they tell me not to teach about government and politics -- in U.S. History. They inspect the items I have on my walls and they tell me I can't wear buttons or shirts or have any right-wing paraphernalia in my class. (I have no clue what they are talking about.) In the mean time, the other history teacher was taking kids to Obama rallies, crying over his speeches in class, and having the kids design t-shirts for an Obama campaign contest -- she was actually awarded a social studies teacher of the year specifically for doing that stuff in her class.

During the run-up to last year's stupid strike, we were told that it was a perfectly normal democratic thing to be forced to vote in public, by standing up, yes or no. And when the vote was taken, it was pretty close, they didn't even count, they just cheered and cried tears of joy and declared that we were on strike.

Then, they came after us in our classrooms for not voting for a strike. My close friend, a leftist, was stopped in the hallway and told that he had just lost all respect. Another close friend, a Christian middle-isle type (voted for Obama) was stopped in the hallway and was actually yelled at to the point where kids who saw what was happening were crying and running away.

A letter from your boss? So what? He's the boss. It's not my style, I don't really agree with it, but so what?

Tough to not go with the teachers union in Portland. You know what you were signing up for when you took the job. If change is what you feel the union needs get involved.
 

mgreenspan

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2005
4,723
130
Briggs's Back Yard
ptschram said:
Maybe if more of us ran for office, there would be fewer scumbags.

Probably true. Unfortunately, there is a huge amount of money involved with running and that has effectively cut out the "everyday Joe". That said, a little ingenuity with respect to modern media outlets(I'm thinking social network sites, blogs, pod casts, etc.) I think it would be possible to effectively campaign without the high dollar costs.
 

Blue

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2004
10,057
870
AZ
JohnB said:
Tough to not go with the teachers union in Portland. You know what you were signing up for when you took the job. If change is what you feel the union needs get involved.
The unions need to go.
 

knewsom

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2008
5,262
0
La Mancha, CA
Blue said:
The unions need to go.

I guess you must want to make 15k a year with no benefits. Whether you agree with your union on everything or not, you have received a TREMENDOUS benefit from their existence. Indeed we all have. Unions were necessary to balance corporate power when they were conceived and they're still necessary. Unions for Government Employees however have gotten too powerful, and we need to come up with a way to balance that power - eliminating unions isn't going to solve the problem. Unions are a SYMPTOM, not the problem. The problem is imbalance.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
ptschram said:
Maybe if more of us ran for office, there would be fewer scumbags.

What if I run?

Oh... Wait. You want to get rid of scumbags. Damn. And here I was stamping out "Vote for Kennith or you're a fucking moron" buttons.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

p m

Administrator
Staff member
Apr 19, 2004
15,634
864
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La Jolla, CA
www.3rj.org
knewsom said:
I guess you must want to make 15k a year with no benefits. Whether you agree with your union on everything or not, you have received a TREMENDOUS benefit from their existence. Indeed we all have. Unions were necessary to balance corporate power when they were conceived and they're still necessary. Unions for Government Employees however have gotten too powerful, and we need to come up with a way to balance that power - eliminating unions isn't going to solve the problem. Unions are a SYMPTOM, not the problem. The problem is imbalance.
Kris came out of his hiding swinging... make that rambling.

Since the unions were conceived, we've got a lot of workers' protection laws. Now the unions can rest, and go away.
 
p m said:
Kris came out of his hiding swinging... make that rambling.

Since the unions were conceived, we've got a lot of workers' protection laws. Now the unions can rest, and go away.

If there had been no unions arguing for safer working conditions, it wouldn't have been long before the insurance companies would have required the same sorts of laws.
 

Blue

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2004
10,057
870
AZ
knewsom said:
I guess you must want to make 15k a year with no benefits. Whether you agree with your union on everything or not, you have received a TREMENDOUS benefit from their existence. Indeed we all have. Unions were necessary to balance corporate power when they were conceived and they're still necessary. Unions for Government Employees however have gotten too powerful, and we need to come up with a way to balance that power - eliminating unions isn't going to solve the problem. Unions are a SYMPTOM, not the problem. The problem is imbalance.

LOL....no, I don't want to make $15K per year with no benefits, so I don't. No unions involved.

I like how you have determined that unions are the best thing ever, except for government unions. Government workers might tell you the exact opposite. Here's the truth: they're all "BS".
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Blue said:
LOL....no, I don't want to make $15K per year with no benefits, so I don't. No unions involved.

I like how you have determined that unions are the best thing ever, except for government unions. Government workers might tell you the exact opposite. Here's the truth: they're all "BS".

C'mon Blue. Life is so much easier if you hate the other guy.:D

Cheers,

Kennith
 

knewsom

Well-known member
Jul 10, 2008
5,262
0
La Mancha, CA
p m said:
Kris came out of his hiding swinging... make that rambling.

Since the unions were conceived, we've got a lot of workers' protection laws. Now the unions can rest, and go away.

Hiding schmiding. I've been busy. :)

Without those unions and their lobbying force, what do you think would happen to those worker protection laws?

Blue said:
LOL....no, I don't want to make $15K per year with no benefits, so I don't. No unions involved.

I like how you have determined that unions are the best thing ever, except for government unions. Government workers might tell you the exact opposite. Here's the truth: they're all "BS".

I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth, Blue... I never said they were the best thing ever. ...just necessary.
 

p m

Administrator
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Apr 19, 2004
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knewsom said:
Hiding schmiding. I've been busy. :)

Without those unions and their lobbying force, what do you think would happen to those worker protection laws?

I think exactly nothing would happen to those worker protection laws if the unions disappeared.
Just as I think that nobody will seriously consider any significant changes to abortion (or anti-abortion) laws.
 

mgreenspan

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2005
4,723
130
Briggs's Back Yard
knewsom said:
Hiding schmiding. I've been busy. :)

Without those unions and their lobbying force, what do you think would happen to those worker protection laws?



I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth, Blue... I never said they were the best thing ever. ...just necessary.

You think the unions are necessary because without them the worker protection laws would disappear? That's all I can gather from your postings. But I don't want to put the words in your mouth.