toyota recall

[MarkP]

Look, I'm not going to argue against the alleged Cobalt PS issue. I don't know much about it, and don't care to. ..... I can't see how a failed pump would suddenly create a steering input. .....

No pumps, just servo's. Hydraulics are gone, replaced with control algorithms (software and embedded processors) and electric motors. The control algorithms (software) attempt to replicate the hydraulic 'feel', the feedback you feel when steering a normal car.

Now consider this and the throttle whose functionality is also implemented by a software algorithm.

.... it was just one line of code .....

 

[jhmover]

Gives new meaning to the blue screen of death.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

No pumps, just servo's. Hydraulics are gone, replaced with control algorithms (software and embedded processors) and electric motors. The control algorithms (software) attempt to replicate the hydraulic 'feel', the feedback you feel when steering a normal car.

Now consider this and the throttle whose functionality is also implemented by a software algorithm.

.... it was just one line of code .....

That's all great. But still no explanation of whether or not a system failure could plausibly cause "veering", or create a steering torque input. I have no idea, but I'm skeptical. These systems are highly regulated so that they are benign on failure.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not brand loyal. I own a Ford, a Kia, a Pontiac and a Land Rover. I've owned a Subaru, Chev, Mazda and VW's in the past. I still own one of the most recalled vehicles in history.

Toyota fucked up. Their shit does stink. There is no conspiracy.

 

[knewsom]

No pumps, just servo's. Hydraulics are gone, replaced with control algorithms (software and embedded processors) and electric motors. The control algorithms (software) attempt to replicate the hydraulic 'feel', the feedback you feel when steering a normal car.

Now consider this and the throttle whose functionality is also implemented by a software algorithm.

.... it was just one line of code .....

Reminds me of the aircraft control exhibit at the Air and Space museum... there are three control systems set up so you can see the difference between cable and pulley, hydraulics, and modern servo control systems. On the placard next to the modern one, it says "More reliable" as one of its benefits, and yet, though I've been to the museum probably two dozen times, it has never ONCE been functional, though the hydraulics and cable systems seem to work without fail.

 

[DCDisco]

What ever. If your wrecked your Toyota you are an idiot. Put it in neutral or turn off the ignition or stab the brakes hard, etc... will stop every common car made. Modern Americans always blame anything other than themselves if they fuck up.

I bet no one's grandfather would have been such cry baby. I wonder how WWII vets complained when their gun jammed?

 

[MarkP]

That's all great. But still no explanation of whether or not a system failure could plausibly cause "veering", or create a steering torque input. .....

Consider that the steering system, or throttle system, is a transfer function from you to the wheels/engine.

poles and zero's

Review page 4, figure 2 of the linked. Note the regions of the x-axis. Feel better now?

Placement of poles and zero's is critical isn't it?

My senior project was a flight path control system algorithm ..... all software, and I was a EE student.

 

[az_max]

Consider that the steering system, or throttle system, is a transfer function from you to the wheels/engine.

poles and zero's

Review page 4, figure 2 of the linked. Note the regions of the x-axis. Feel better now?

Placement of poles and zero's is critical isn't it?

My senior project was a flight path control system algorithm ..... all software, and I was a EE student.

I try not to put poles in the path of my car, or avoid them if they're already there

Most people have never driven a car with power steering that's had a belt/pump failure. It's really heavy at low speeds, but not very noticeable at speed. I'm guessing because of the failure of the motor the steering was heavier than they expected and they over corrected.

Reminds me of the aircraft control exhibit at the Air and Space museum... there are three control systems set up so you can see the difference between cable and pulley, hydraulics, and modern servo control systems. On the placard next to the modern one, it says "More reliable" as one of its benefits, and yet, though I've been to the museum probably two dozen times, it has never ONCE been functional, though the hydraulics and cable systems seem to work without fail.

Back when I worked at an arcade, Atari's Race Driving was the most popular racing game. It offered feedback steering and a clutch pedal. The pot that controlled the steering and feedback was an expensive 4 pole device. When it got dirty, it caused all kinds of havoc on the steering wheel and player. it would jerk the wheel while you were turning it and sometimes wouldn't steer where you wanted to go. I can see the same thing happening to the Colbalt, especially in the 'Return Mode'. That slightly off center short or open in the potentiometer is going to cause the motor to try to 'help' you center the wheel. And you just might hit that pole.

I realize aircraft have redundant systems and extensive checking. I don't think modern cars have anywhere near that redundancy or error correcting. They may try to get the device to fail in a safe manner, but that may not be possible. They still have a way to go to make it idiotproof.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Consider that the steering system, or throttle system, is a transfer function from you to the wheels/engine.

poles and zero's

Review page 4, figure 2 of the linked. Note the regions of the x-axis. Feel better now?

Placement of poles and zero's is critical isn't it?

My senior project was a flight path control system algorithm ..... all software, and I was a EE student.

I understand the theory, although I hated that math. Regardless, it still doesn't mean that classic controls theory applies to a computerized digital system. Digital systems do not have to obey classic linear algebra equations.

Or, it may not even be physically possible.

That being said, I inquired of somebody in the know, who confirmed it is very possible for an EPAS system to fail and cause a steering input. He declined to go into detail, but his word is gospel to me.

So there we are.

Most people have never driven a car with power steering that's had a belt/pump failure. It's really heavy at low speeds, but not very noticeable at speed. I'm guessing because of the failure of the motor the steering was heavier than they expected and they over corrected.

That's what I thought too, but have been informed I'm wrong.

 

[p m]

My son drove my brother's Grand Cherokee on a mountain road when intermittent p/s failure happened. All of a sudden, the power assist was gone; fortunately, he held onto the wheel with both hands and had a chance to keep it under control through the turn.
He assumed the pump failed and they went on, but the pump kicked back in a few minutes later. The re-engagement of power assist was just as scary as its disappearance.
There was plenty of fluid, it didn't foam, the pump seemed to work, and the belt didn't appear as having been slipping.

We never got to the bottom of this one. I made another mental notch against ZJ, and filed it away.

 

[kennith]

I've had a few cars and trucks without power steering. I loved them. I've even had one that was supposed to have power steering, but it had been disabled. Wonderful, all of them. There is nothing between you and the front wheels, and all that extra shit is no longer clogging up the car.

A little while back, the Jag decided that it didn't want power brakes any more. So, I drove it without power assist for a while. Damn that was refreshing. It was just plain nice feeling that direct connection, and I enjoyed it. Yeah, you have to push harder, but it's not a big deal. It's no lightweight, either. It was like a glimpse of how it feels to actually drive a car for a change. Same with the power steering and ABS.

Driving a vehicle without ABS is wonderful. It's been disabled on the DII for a while, because I'm ripping that shit out. It's a little more involved than just ripping it out, though.

It really is better without that nonsense. None of that stuff is really required. Automatic transmissions, power steering, ABS, and even power brakes can be done away with and still leave a perfectly usable vehicle.

Can you imagine how much shit would be gone?

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[garrett]

we have a few little Hilux pickups around here - if they didn't look this hideous, I'd longe for one. That 2.7 four-banger is a nice and torquey motor - pulls pretty strong right off the idle, no need to burn the clutch. The transmission's pretty truck-y, though, feels like it could use double-clutching every once in a while. I forgot that feeling.

What year? You should be talking about the 1st Gen Tacoma style, which is my favorite. I don't like the Gen 2 trucks, which is what I am driving now. Too big for me, but damn they roll through the trails nicely. We have a 1997 double cab Hilux in CT. That's the perfect size in my book, but still don't like the horizontal driving position. The FJ60 has a far better upright position.
In '84-'85 Toyota imported a handful (500 or so) two door "Hiluxes" - normal aspirated diesels (2.4) early and turbos later. Talk about great little trucks. We have two of them - solid axles, stupid simple and with 4.88s they crawl all day long.

Recall? Did anyone really think this would ever really impact Toyota a year later? Funny. Too much of a good thing is hard to stop.

 

[p m]

I don't know, most rental trucks here are between 4 and 5 years old. Will take a look at the door jamb.
It is not the 1st gen Tacoma style - it is a completely ROW thing. All of Japanese manufacturers make similarly-looking trucks now - L200, Nissan, etc. It is funny to see a four-door cab with a pretense of aerodynamics, and a bed with rolled-up top edges with riveted hooks.
The front pass. seat is good for two TCN asses, and is bolted to the floor without any adjustment. Speaking of funny things - you can unlock all four doors with a key, but in order to lock them, you need to hold driver's door handle in the open position with your left hand, push on the lock button inside the door with your right hand, and slam the door - all while keeping the outside door handle in the "open" position. Quite a treat, especially when the truck is covered with sticky mud. And you can take the key out of the ignition lock while the engine is running.
Talk about weird solutions.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I've had a few cars and trucks without power steering. I loved them. I've even had one that was supposed to have power steering, but it had been disabled. Wonderful, all of them. There is nothing between you and the front wheels, and all that extra shit is no longer clogging up the car.

There's a big difference between a car without power steering, and a car with failed power steering. Ditto brakes.

I had an 83 VW GTI with manual steering. Sure, the feel was nice. But 6 turns lock-to-lock in an autocross course brought teh suck. That and even I was annoyed with the effort required to park the thing. And that was a 2200lb car. On my daily driver, I'll take a properly tuned HPAS system any day.

It really is better without that nonsense. None of that stuff is really required. Automatic transmissions, power steering, ABS, and even power brakes can be done away with and still leave a perfectly usable vehicle.

Commonly stated opinion of somebody who thinks they are the best driver in the world. Talk to some of the best drivers in the world, however, and they'll disagree. Ever see what a WRC driver looks like after just one stage with failed power steering? Fatigue destroys your ability to drive fast. Heck, they even flirted with air conditioning in the cars for a while but couldn't make it reliable.

Do you know how fast a race compound tire flat-spots when you lock it up? Do you really think they put traction control on F1 cars and WRC cars because they want to slow the cars down?

All of these systems are beneficial. The problem is, they are usually tuned for the lowest common denominator in road cars. Overboosted steering. Over-sensitive ABS. Draconian throttle-cutting traction control. etc.

 

[kennith]

There's a big difference between a car without power steering, and a car with failed power steering. Ditto brakes.

I had an 83 VW GTI with manual steering. Sure, the feel was nice. But 6 turns lock-to-lock in an autocross course brought teh suck. That and even I was annoyed with the effort required to park the thing. And that was a 2200lb car. On my daily driver, I'll take a properly tuned HPAS system any day.



Commonly stated opinion of somebody who thinks they are the best driver in the world. Talk to some of the best drivers in the world, however, and they'll disagree. Ever see what a WRC driver looks like after just one stage with failed power steering? Fatigue destroys your ability to drive fast. Heck, they even flirted with air conditioning in the cars for a while but couldn't make it reliable.

Do you know how fast a race compound tire flat-spots when you lock it up? Do you really think they put traction control on F1 cars and WRC cars because they want to slow the cars down?

All of these systems are beneficial. The problem is, they are usually tuned for the lowest common denominator in road cars. Overboosted steering. Over-sensitive ABS. Draconian throttle-cutting traction control. etc.

:rofl:

You might want to check out some FIA regulations pertaining to systems such as ABS... Those systems aren't free in all competitions.

And, yup. It will wear the shit out of tires, depending upon the compound and braking conditions. People have raced for years without it, though, and they will continue to race for many more without it.

I've been around enough rallys in different competitive groups to know that not every vehicle has ABS, traction control, four wheel drive, or even power steering. Now, that said, I think power steering is great to have off road and in most forms of racing.

That doesn't mean I have to like it on every single car in the world, however. Plenty of people, again, race without it, and I'd prefer not to have it on things like compact trucks and little sports cars. On a Rover...

I'll have it. Getting wedged and trying to turn that wheel isn't fun. I'd prefer it a bit dialed back on most cars, but for what it is, I like the steering on my DII.

That doesn't mean that I like the system. I like the results on some cars and for some purposes. You've got to think ass-backwards here, in order to get a feel for how I see things. I know it doesn't make sense.

As for being the best driver in the world? Nope. I'm only better than most.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[R_Lefebvre]

You might want to check out some FIA regulations pertaining to systems such as ABS... Those systems aren't free in all competitions.

What has that got to do with anything?

And, yup. It will wear the shit out of tires, depending upon the compound and braking conditions.

What tires won't it wear the shit out of? You're making a statement about compounds as if some won't wear a flatspot instantly, so I'm curious which.

I've been around enough rallys in different competitive groups to know that not every vehicle has ABS, traction control, four wheel drive, or even power steering.

What's your point? Yeah, lots of people with old cars, broken cars, or just can't afford a top-flight ride will do without. Nothing insightful about that. That doesn't mean the system is not a benefit to performance.

 

[LRflip]

Speaking of funny things - you can unlock all four doors with a key, but in order to lock them, you need to hold driver's door handle in the open position with your left hand, push on the lock button inside the door with your right hand, and slam the door - all while keeping the outside door handle in the "open" position. Quite a treat, especially when the truck is covered with sticky mud. And you can take the key out of the ignition lock while the engine is running.
Talk about weird solutions.

My 92 Mazda B2200 did all of this and shifted without the clutch engaged as well. Damn I miss that truck.

 

[LRflip]

As for being the best driver in the world? Nope. I'm only better than most.

Cheers,

Kennith

Ill can actually attest to this...guy scared the shit out of me. But, it was fun and I never felt like I was any real danger.

Burnouts through 5th gear with Pantera in the CD player never felt so right.

 

[kennith]

What has that got to do with anything?

Well, quite a bit of racing doesn't allow ABS. Performance advantage or not, people are racing just fine without it. Wearing tires flat in regional races doesn't really compare to open wheels flying around Cote D'Azur.

I'm not at all cracking on regional competition. I'm only pointing out that even people who engage in the highest forms of competition go without ABS at times. Can it help? Sure. Is it needed? Nope.

What tires won't it wear the shit out of? You're making a statement about compounds as if some won't wear a flatspot instantly, so I'm curious which.

Anything rubbed against a harder surface will immediately wear. No shit. I should think it's obvious, however, that some tires are more tolerant of this sort of abuse than others.

The faster you go, the faster it happens. Track conditions make a difference as well. Everything matters, but you aren't meant go about locking your tires and sliding to a halt all the time. Lock a hard tire, of any pattern, across wet tarmac, and I think you will see a difference in wear when compared to a very soft tire on hot concrete. If you want to get into actual compounds, you can, but it's pointless. The end result will still be a comparison of something that's harder and something that's softer, all geometry the same.

A chirp here and there isn't going to remove you from competition or force an early pit or undue extra time at service areas. Everyone else out there is dealing with the same thing if the braking systems aren't entirely free in that competition. They are all running the best they can run. If no ABS is allowed, such is life.

What's your point? Yeah, lots of people with old cars, broken cars, or just can't afford a top-flight ride will do without. Nothing insightful about that. That doesn't mean the system is not a benefit to performance.

It's not always about what you can afford or what you can build. This shit just isn't allowed in certain levels of competition. In groups where most things are open, sure, you run what you brung, but there are regulations even at the highest levels of competition, and they allow what they allow.

I honestly don't know what you are on about. I never said the systems weren't beneficial. They just aren't needed, and it's nice to drive something that doesn't have them. Big deal.

Cheers,

Kennith