Disco 5: Let the depression set in

P38 said:

And you clearly don't understand the economics of vehicle manufacture! When I wrote about rivetting them together, that equates to COST of production. !

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Explain the issue with getting the defender replacement out that won't be riveted together and hand made like the original. They can compete in that market against the Jeep. Fj cruisers are practically selling for their original sticker used at dealerships. 4runners are everywhere. There is a demand and there aren't many choices.

Please oh great manufacturing wizard tell me why they shouldn't compete with the Wrangler? Your idea is to compete the new Defender replacement with what vehicle segment? The rest of the Land Rover lineup?

LR competing with Jeep and expecting a great outcome is akin to arena football vs. NFL Champion team. LR overhead is higher, and I'd bet almost anything that LR's margins are waaaaaay thinner. Mike hit the nail on the head. LR isn't concerned what "we" think or want. They are doing fine without "enthusiasts" and LR "historians" such as ourselves. A new Defender will be like a new Gucci or LV or Fendi purse. It's an accessory for the wealthy. I'm frankly surprised LVMH didn't have a go at LR before they were bought by their present owner.

They aren't really doing fine. They are doing OK. Their market in China is shrinking. That was a huge market for them. The CEO has even said he wants to sell volume to get the company where it needs to be. Wrangler segment is perfect place to do that but they are dragging their feet on that and when they finally try to break into it they are going to be hosed.

What other segment are they going to sell volume in? The large SUV segment, nope. The small SUV segment? Probably not. The Disco sport can seat 7. That's cool but people don't buy small SUVs to seat 7.

How hard would it be to make a vehicle almost exactly like the Wrangler and market it as better for the family and classier. Everybody would go for it. More facts(data up to 2013).

1). People between the age of 41 and 49 make up a strong ownership of 2007-2013 Wranglers at 30%.
2). The average household income of a 2007-2013 Jeep Wrangler owner is $78,989; for comparison, the average U.S. household income is around $51,000.
3). 72% of 2007-2013 Jeep Wrangler owners are male and 28% are female.

You're telling me that a portion of these people won't gravitate towards a Land Rover in that same vehicle segment?

Yeah, again, they can't compete against Jeep. Period. It's a different customer. Just because Joe and Jim make $80k a year doesn't mean Joe and Jim want the same SUV. If Joe cares about status more than Jim, Joe MIGHT be an LR customer. Jeep isn't a "status" truck. They will never market themselves as one. LR will ALWAYS be a "status" vehicle. I've done too many LR events and trained too many LR owners who ask where the nearest car wash is after an event. That's the honest to God's truth! They don't care so much about off road "performance" as they do that chrome nameplate on the leading edge of the hood. You can say what you want about Jeeps - I'm not a big fan for the somewhat asinine reason that everybody ad his brother has one - BUT, they love getting muddy, they love running around town and to the Starbucks with dirt and mud all over their trucks! LR, sadly, has found what works, and what works isn't many-a-man heres' "cup of tea"!

True but I think you're underestimating millenails and younger buyers and people who want somethung different. Folks are buying site import trucks with fancy paint because they want to stand out.

P38 said:

And you clearly don't understand the economics of vehicle manufacture! When I wrote about rivetting them together, that equates to COST of production. Not all those wonderful "flexibility" you post about. As with GM, back in the 50s, they had so many varieties it made your head spin - and cost them $Ms in overhead. Plus, now the Defender shares NOTHING as a set of common components with any other Land Rover product, which makes the economics of production even worse!

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I am intimately familiar with the subject, but I'm not going to piss into a hurricane of loosely connected ideas.

You've managed to miss (or misunderstand) every point I've made, somehow; which is an impressive feat, because I repeat them in several ways throughout each post in an exhaustive manner.

It's kind of my thing.

Apparently your thing is the exclamation point. I enjoy semicolons. To each his own, I suppose.

Cheers,

Kennith

My niece's husband recently purchased a Disco Sport. He knows about my LR craziness. When talking with him about when we could go off highway he basically said no way was he taking off the asphalt. I might get hin on a dirt road yet he bought the Rover for probably status and looks. To each his own yet this is a typical current customer it seems

I see them running around town with soccer moms at the wheel. Seem's a lot of used ones are 4 sale around here for some reason.

mgreenspan said:

Have you looked at what's available on a Wrangler lately and what the price tag is? The market is there for the taking. There is just no effort for taking.

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It's an interesting question as to where the price point should be. Right now, Land Rover has two vehicles that will hover between $40,000 and $45,000 when equipped decently; the Discovery sport and the Evoque. The step up to the LR4 is a big one.

That said, people are more than happy nowadays to spend $45,000 on a pickup truck they don't actually need, a utility vehicle, or even just an off-pavement toy. Off the rack, you'll end up just shy of $40,000 for a Jeep Wrangler if you want a well equipped model that promotes the lifestyle.

If we were to position the Defender as I suggested in my initial post here, that price would be possible, but Land Rover's cheaper platforms wouldn't. They won't underpin a "Defender".

It would need either a new or borrowed ladder frame, or the LR4 platform, which may leave it with a fixed wheelbase.

The cost-cutting to bring it into financial reason would be possible, but you're ending up with independent suspension on their own platforms. Even so, they've done well with that these days. It could be a differentiating factor.

Of course, there's nothing saying Land Rover couldn't partner with another manufacturer for a traditional platform. It's been done many times before, and now quite a few of those are manufactured here. It also wouldn't be the first time Land Rover has done it.

There are a lot of interesting possibilities. They likely won't be explored, but it's fun to think about.

Cheers,

Kennith

emmodg said:

Yeah, again, they can't compete against Jeep. Period. It's a different customer. Just because Joe and Jim make $80k a year doesn't mean Joe and Jim want the same SUV. If Joe cares about status more than Jim, Joe MIGHT be an LR customer. Jeep isn't a "status" truck. They will never market themselves as one. LR will ALWAYS be a "status" vehicle. I've done too many LR events and trained too many LR owners who ask where the nearest car wash is after an event. That's the honest to God's truth! They don't care so much about off road "performance" as they do that chrome nameplate on the leading edge of the hood. You can say what you want about Jeeps - I'm not a big fan for the somewhat asinine reason that everybody ad his brother has one - BUT, they love getting muddy, they love running around town and to the Starbucks with dirt and mud all over their trucks! LR, sadly, has found what works, and what works isn't many-a-man heres' "cup of tea"!

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Sorry dude, but you're wrong.

The "jeep owner" everyone on here is talking about is akin to what all of you are.... real brand enthusiasts who wants a real tool to use on and off road, modify, and enjoy. Both LR and Jeep aren't really focused on that anymore, and for this argument, that isn't the majority of JK buyers either. "Jeep people" are the ones buying and building old XJs, TJs, CJs, etc and modifying them. The majority of new JK buyers are the upper middle class family who wants to the "fun" of a wrangler but really should be buying something else. These are the people who you see all summer windows up, hardtop on, AC blasting. My wife's sister's boyfriend is in real estate in the Hamptons and those uber rich out there buy JKs left and right. They're replacing the 5 series/E class segment as the "every day" car for a lot of well-off people, and are right at home in next to Gs, LC200s, Teslas, AMG and M cars. TBH, I remember a LOT more P38s and L322s running around when those were new out there than I see L405s now.

I have no real statistics to back this up, it is just my observation. However, I have been around there every summer for as long as I can remember and that counts for something. I think.

After LR renew the interior of the Defender, they sold a lot of them here in HK.

Article to go with the photo.


http://www.motortrend.com/news/report-next-generation-range-rover-discovery-move-upmarket/

Land Rover will introduce a new generation of its venerable Discovery SUV in 2017, which will replace the LR4 and mark the return of the Discovery name to U.S. shores. According to a report from Automotive News, the next-generation Discovery could take the place of the current-generation Range Rover in the lineup since Land Rover sees an opportunity to move the Range Rover line upmarket. This means the Range Rover will effectively become a competitor to ultra-luxury SUVs like the Bentley Bentayga and Rolls-Royce’s upcoming SUV, which could be named the Cullinan.

In an interview with Automotive News, Land Rover design boss Gerry McGovern revealed that the Range Rover line will become more luxurious while the Discovery and Discovery Sport slot underneath it. McGovern also believes that the Range Rover line has yet to reach its price ceiling, which could indicate that the brand may be going after a more affluent clientele, with off-road-capable SUVs that also happens to be opulent. McGovern also noted that he doesn’t see a Range Rover becoming a true seven-seat SUV because the Discovery will fill that role. However, he also indicated that the 5+2 configuration, which is available on the Range Rover and Range Rover Sport, will likely remain.

Moving the Range Rover upmarket could not only see the Discovery step into the segment it formerly occupied but also lead to a member of the upcoming Defender family to fill the spot of the current LR4 (Discovery in other global markets). Currently, the most luxurious Range Rover available is the long wheelbase SVAutobiography model, which seats four and starts at a cool $200,490 including destination.

EricTyrrell said:

In NA, Defender is a high end Jeep. That's all there is to it. You'll have a hard time convincing me that wont sell when every other form of utility or luxury utility vehicle is selling like hotcakes. Not to mention the intense one-upmanship that fuels the Jeep and truck aftermarket.

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Good post. And good points from Matt as well. You can test this hypothesis, at least anecdotally. My older sons are both Roverheads. But their otherwise outdoor-minded friends don't know anything about LRs other than what they see today. I show them a stock pic of a Jeep and a stock pic of a Defender. Both straight off the line, no mods. I ask which they think is cooler. They all pick the Defender hands down. 100% of the time. "Wow! What's that? That's bad ass." These are future vehicle purchasers.

In fact, have any of you ever met someone who, when compared side by side, thinks the Jeep is a more desirable vehicle? Defenders would sell. And they would sell to many people who would otherwise buy Wranglers. Even among the off-road focused demographic, the fact that Jeep has luxury SUVs in its line-up doesn't stop anyone who wants to buy and modify a Wrangler any more than the existence of the RR would stop someone from buying and wheeling a Defender.

Finally, Defenders will be traded in the aftermarket and carry the brand forward well into the future as a unique value proposition long after these Explorer/Disco things are forgotten. Mass market doesn't necessarily dilute a brand. Common, thoughtless design dilutes a brand.

jhmover said:

Article to go with the photo.


http://www.motortrend.com/news/report-next-generation-range-rover-discovery-move-upmarket/.

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This article sheds some light as to why they haven't tried to compete with the Wrangler. Gerry McGovern is obsessed with moving the entire brand up. Prepare for the DINO: Defender in name only.

SCSL said:

They all pick the Defender hands down. 100% of the time. "Wow! What's that? That's bad ass." These are future vehicle purchasers.

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That what I've been trying to convey. People want it because they want it. They can market to that and tack on eco friendly and adventure lifestyle and crush it. LR makes people think adventure a la Indian Jones. Jeep makes people think mud and beer a la Larry the Cable Guy.

So who's going to be the first to order a new Discovery 5? Remember how everyone whined when the LR3 came out? Now I know about six people with LR3/LR4 trucks in their driveways (including my 2007 LR3).

I'm sure I'll buy a next generation Defender no matter what they do to it - but I'm keeping my D-90 and my two old Series IIA's.
I'm more concerned that it will be at least another two years before they release the Defender and I'm feeling the need for another diesel powered something in the driveway to replace the ten year old LR3. I'm actually considering buying a new RRS or Discovery 5 to drive until the Defender comes out.

I need something to tow my travel trailer with and the new D5 may be fun to drive for a couple of years.

Jack, let me know if you decide to sell your LR3.