Glock vs Sig

[brian4d]

Ok then, forget tupperware and go with a Beretta M9. Accurate, will eat anything you can feed it and when open carried it's big enough to say "leave me alone and go find a sheep".
I usually open carry an 8040 Mini Cougar, it's surprising how most people don't even notice it's there.
Now let's all get into the "element of surprise" from the cc only crowd.:smilelol:

Not going to argue with you about the open carry surprise because I agree, hell, the mere fact you open carry is enough to deter a lot of potential problems. My issue is with (some) NC Barney Pfeiff police officers that take issue with your open carry in public. Instilling fear in the public and all that mess. Never dealt with it personally but I don't want to test the waters either.

 

[brian4d]

Personally I do not see a point to open carry in public, especially having a ccw. Not sure what you mean by the "element of surprise," (if I have to draw a firearm it is not to surprise someone but rather mitigate a situation for which there is no other recourse) but why would one want to let others know he/she has a weapon on them? We are not exactly in a combat zone here. If someone intends to do something bad to you, exposed gun or not, they may still go for it. I would rather not broadcast to the world that I am armed; after all that is a tool of last resort and I want to keep it concealed until there is a need to use it. Train with it from concealment, so presentation is not an issue.

I agree with some of this but you'd have to be on suicide watch to go for someone else's holstered weapon, at least here in NC. It's more understood/tolerated here I guess. I see lots of folks open carry.

 

[kk88rrc]

Not going to argue with you about the open carry surprise because I agree, hell, the mere fact you open carry is enough to deter a lot of potential problems. My issue is with (some) NC Barney Pfeiff police officers that take issue with your open carry in public. Instilling fear in the public and all that mess. Never dealt with it personally but I don't want to test the waters either.

Maine has an OC law & some take issue with it….

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jfdEbe7e9GE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Ballah06]

I agree with some of this but you'd have to be on suicide watch to go for someone else's holstered weapon, at least here in NC. It's more understood/tolerated here I guess. I see lots of folks open carry.

I hear you, but the majority of folks I have seen OC could probably just get that weapon taken away pretty easily. My opinion still stands; in the overwhelming majority of day-to-day activities showing a firearm is unnecessary as the threat is just not there. Vigilance and situational awareness are key to safeguarding oneself and with an exposed firearm, no matter how capable an individual you are just introducing an unnecessary stimulus and potential target of opportunity to the outside world. You also have to be much more vigilant to ensure nobody tries to go for that gun. Just my opinion.

Here is also some food for thought. I would go out on a limb and say that most of us do not reside/operate in high-threat neighborhoods, something if it was the case, would moreso justify display of force due to a higher baseline threat. So, if we follow that, "I am visibly armed so don't F with me" logic, if one knows he or she is going to that type of neighborhood, they should really display their sidearm?

To also consider are some plain nut cases or emotionally distrubed persons who may just want to try and get one's gun. Again, without it being out there, highly visible, situations like these are further reduced. Bottom line is that IMO the negatives of open carry by far outweigh the positives.

P.S. OC is legal here in VA as well, just don't see a lot of folks doing it; can count on one hand the amount of times I have seen someone OC in this general area.

 

[kennith]

I hear you, but the majority of folks I have seen OC could probably just get that weapon taken away pretty easily.

I had an idea a while back, after remembering those Pink Panther movies.

A friend of mine owned a number of holsters of varying security level, and was rather proud of his newest model.

He taught concealed carry classes (I taught the cleaning portion... Imagine that...), and had a blue training weapon matching his own firearm to illustrate certain safety procedures more effectively.

We'd had a number of conversations involving disarmament. He'd already conceded that no matter how carefully he held a firearm, if he was close enough, I could take it before he was able to pull the trigger, even if he knew it was coming. Anyone can with enough training; it's not an amazing trick.

That's one good reason to draw and fire; not draw and stand there like an idiot. Also, for the love of all that's holy, don't let your weapon extend closer to a person than he is tall...

Anyway, I moved the argument to his fancy holsters. I snatched a few without effort, but he was concerned that I knew where the holster was, he wasn't wearing an over-shirt, or that I'd seen him fit the particular model before I disarmed him.

Fine. That's fair.

We agreed that for a month he'd have his training weapon in whichever holster he pleased, in whatever manner of dress he pleased when he was home. It had to be blue all the time to minimize the risk of a negligent discharge, because I intended to try and snatch that thing whenever I stopped by.

I got that son of a bitch every last time; from the back, the front, and the side, and a good portion of the time it took a few seconds for him to notice it was gone, and even then only because he was constantly checking.

It wasn't a surprise to me, but it was to him.

It's nothing that can't be learned with practice (and that's important to note), but the point is clear. The holster has shit-all to do with weapon security, no matter how many snaps, locks, and flaps it has, and regardless of which direction you have to twist the thing to get the firearm out.

If you're carrying a weapon, concealed or not, it's your job to watch out for it at all times, and to keep an eye out for anyone around you who looks up to no good. Anyone with a pile of holsters can learn to disarm you before a draw, and you might not even notice it if it happens.

This isn't about carrying a firearm for protection. This is about protecting a firearm you're carrying, regardless of why you're carrying it.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[p m]

Ok then, forget tupperware and go with a Beretta M9. Accurate, will eat anything you can feed it and when open carried it's big enough to say "leave me alone and go find a sheep".

... and a P226 is only about $50 away from an M9. Just sayin'...

 

[mike97d1]

... and a P226 is only about $50 away from an M9. Just sayin'...

And a Glock is quite a bit less $ than both.

 

[1920SF]

Ok then, forget tupperware and go with a Beretta M9. Accurate, will eat anything you can feed it and when open carried it's big enough to say "leave me alone and go find a sheep". :

Oh the horror of carrying an M9! It does have other uses like a hammer, wheel chock if the parking brake fails, etc.
Sorry, I just loathe those things-they are safe though, you have to no shit want it to go boom.

 

[Ballah06]

I had an idea a while back, after remembering those Pink Panther movies.

A friend of mine owned a number of holsters of varying security level, and was rather proud of his newest model.

He taught concealed carry classes (I taught the cleaning portion... Imagine that...), and had a blue training weapon matching his own firearm to illustrate certain safety procedures more effectively.

We'd had a number of conversations involving disarmament. He'd already conceded that no matter how carefully he held a firearm, if he was close enough, I could take it before he was able to pull the trigger, even if he knew it was coming. Anyone can with enough training; it's not an amazing trick.

That's one good reason to draw and fire; not draw and stand there like an idiot. Also, for the love of all that's holy, don't let your weapon extend closer to a person than he is tall...

Anyway, I moved the argument to his fancy holsters. I snatched a few without effort, but he was concerned that I knew where the holster was, he wasn't wearing an over-shirt, or that I'd seen him fit the particular model before I disarmed him.

Fine. That's fair.

We agreed that for a month he'd have his training weapon in whichever holster he pleased, in whatever manner of dress he pleased when he was home. It had to be blue all the time to minimize the risk of a negligent discharge, because I intended to try and snatch that thing whenever I stopped by.

I got that son of a bitch every last time; from the back, the front, and the side, and a good portion of the time it took a few seconds for him to notice it was gone, and even then only because he was constantly checking.

It wasn't a surprise to me, but it was to him.

It's nothing that can't be learned with practice (and that's important to note), but the point is clear. The holster has shit-all to do with weapon security, no matter how many snaps, locks, and flaps it has, and regardless of which direction you have to twist the thing to get the firearm out.

If you're carrying a weapon, concealed or not, it's your job to watch out for it at all times, and to keep an eye out for anyone around you who looks up to no good. Anyone with a pile of holsters can learn to disarm you before a draw, and you might not even notice it if it happens.

This isn't about carrying a firearm for protection. This is about protecting a firearm you're carrying, regardless of why you're carrying it.

Cheers,

Kennith

Good points and no argument there, hence my opinion that at least when a weapon is properly concealed anyone who may be prone to try and take the firearm away simply do not know it is there in the first place. Carrying OC removes any doubt. As you pointed out earlier, one has to truly be cognizant of any and all weapons on his/her person and ensure they are properly protected; not by a quadruple retention holster but rather situational awareness, body positioning, etc.

 

[rovercanus]

Oh the horror of carrying an M9! It does have other uses like a hammer, wheel chock if the parking brake fails, etc.
Sorry, I just loathe those things-they are safe though, you have to no shit want it to go boom.

And it does, every time.

Peter, the P226 is a sweet pistol.

Ballah, the OC snatch has not happened as of yet except for a brotha that was displaying his new .22 in his front waste band when anotha brotha came up pistol drawn and said, "Gimme yo wallets, an' I'll take dat gat too".
The "Element of surprise" is in reference to almost every argument against open carry.
I don't open display a firearm, I just refuse to dress around one.
If Johnny Law wants to stop me I will be glad to educate him in the courts if necessary. Exercise your rights or lose them.
Criminals conceal.

 

[kennith]

Oh the horror of carrying an M9! It does have other uses like a hammer, wheel chock if the parking brake fails, etc.
Sorry, I just loathe those things-they are safe though, you have to no shit want it to go boom.

I hated them as well until I got my hands on a civilian model. No way are they coming off the same line.

Those things are as slick as snot on a doorknob.

It's still an M9, but it's a hell of a lot nicer than what you're remembering.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[kennith]

... and a P226 is only about $50 away from an M9. Just sayin'...

That'll be the best $50 you've ever spent.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[Ballah06]

And it does, every time.

Peter, the P226 is a sweet pistol.

Ballah, the OC snatch has not happened as of yet except for a brotha that was displaying his new .22 in his front waste band when anotha brotha came up pistol drawn and said, "Gimme yo wallets, an' I'll take dat gat too".
The "Element of surprise" is in reference to almost every argument against open carry.
I don't open display a firearm, I just refuse to dress around one.
If Johnny Law wants to stop me I will be glad to educate him in the courts if necessary. Exercise your rights or lose them.
Criminals conceal.

I see your point, but have to disagree with the "criminals conceal" statement; at times it's just better to have some mystery there... Kind of like seeing a fine woman in lingerie first and then... :drool:

 

[rovercanus]

I hated them as well until I got my hands on a civilian model. No way are they coming off the same line.

Those things are as slick as snot on a doorknob.

It's still an M9, but it's a hell of a lot nicer than what you're remembering.

Cheers,

Kennith

Same line. Just not beat to death by G.I.Joes and Janes, reissued 200 times and pieced together from other beat to shit pistols by an indifferent armorer.

 

[1920SF]

I hated them as well until I got my hands on a civilian model. No way are they coming off the same line.

Those things are as slick as snot on a doorknob.

It's still an M9, but it's a hell of a lot nicer than what you're remembering.

Cheers,

Kennith

You may well be right, since the ones that I hate I still am looking at right now in the hands of my Marines (and they still suck!). Having gone through shooting courses with both the mil issue M9 and someone else's issue G19 I don't know that even having a nice unmolested civ spec gun would change my mind on that pistol comparatively for anything other than 'which one would you prefer to carry into the chow hall'

For me the ergonomics of the G19 were significantly more effective. The M9 is a robust, safe, and likely accurate enough pistol but I just don't see it providing the same utility as the glock platform.
r-
Ray

 

[rovercanus]

For me the ergonomics of the G19 were significantly more effective. The M9 is a robust, safe, and likely accurate enough pistol but I just don't see it providing the same utility as the glock platform.
r-
Ray

I had a vet tell me shooting the M9 was like holding a sausage.
But we all know that Glocks fire spontaneously and sometimes explode.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hot-wounds-Glock-goes-accidentally-purse.html

 

[D Chapman]

You can, if you look hard, but i honestly do not see the point. Gen 3 is a better platform IMO. I think Dan was saying it just to raise some pulses on here.

Not at all. I refuse to own a handgun with a rail. You can argue all you want about how useful a rail is and talk about all the kool shit you can clip to your gun to make it more better. I personally think it just makes you look like a douche bag.

I don't need finger holds, either. If you need finger holds buy an aftermarket grip that's even more grippy than the molded Glock grip. I mean, you never know when you might need to reach for your gun when your hands are covered in blood or olive oil. So more grippy is more better.

Buy a Glock and put some steel sights on it. Done.

 

[kennith]

Not at all. I refuse to own a handgun with a rail. You can argue all you want about how useful a rail is and talk about all the kool shit you can clip to your gun to make it more better. I personally think it just makes you look like a douche bag.

You can think whatever you want. Rails exist for a reason.

As a side-arm, a pistol is bare.

As a supplementary or compact offensive weapon system, a pistol is offered with a rail. That's just the way it is.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[p m]

Kennith, you can call a backpack a portable versatile cargo container system, but it's still a fucking backpack.
A rail on a pistol is silly. What do you put on it? A giant blinding flashlight that serves no other purpose at night than telling your real or imagined adversary where to aim better?

 

[kennith]

You may well be right, since the ones that I hate I still am looking at right now in the hands of my Marines (and they still suck!). Having gone through shooting courses with both the mil issue M9 and someone else's issue G19 I don't know that even having a nice unmolested civ spec gun would change my mind on that pistol comparatively for anything other than 'which one would you prefer to carry into the chow hall'

For me the ergonomics of the G19 were significantly more effective. The M9 is a robust, safe, and likely accurate enough pistol but I just don't see it providing the same utility as the glock platform.
r-
Ray

Nobody I worked with was issued a Glock. When the hell did they start passing those out? Some had them, but they certainly weren't issued at that time, and were only allowed as sidearms.

The M9 just wasn't my thing, but they gave me something else eventually, so it wasn't a big deal. There's nothing wrong with it, really; it's certainly more than good enough for the job, but there are just too many areas that could be improved just a bit to give the guy who passed off the final design a pat on the back.

It's not surprising. This is the same organization that decided seating arrangements in the HMMWV should best fit a skinny, ten year old girl.

Cheers,

Kennith