Glock vs Sig

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Kennith, you can call a backpack a portable versatile cargo container system, but it's still a fucking backpack.
A rail on a pistol is silly. What do you put on it? A giant blinding flashlight that serves no other purpose at night than telling your real or imagined adversary where to aim better?

That ain't how you use a light, and you're bound to know it. Defense isn't the same as offense, the light's off as much as possible regardless. Most of the time the it isn't visible anyway.

Stepping away from GI, light is an absolute fucking god-send in the bush. A few well-placed flashes can turn the tide of a raid very quickly, or secure an advantage to begin with. Hell, a flash light alone is worth it's weight in gold in a fight, whether or not it's attached to a firearm.

Also, systems as I described in the post you mentioned are issued and used. Pistols meant to be more than sidearms don't come bare. It depends on what you're up to, but there are applications for a "system" rather than a weapon.

I'm not saying everyone should have junk bolted all over their handgun, but to suggest a rail serves no important purpose, or is perhaps a detriment, is not logical at all.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
That ain't how you use a light, and you're bound to know it. Defense isn't the same as offense, the light's off as much as possible regardless. Most of the time the it isn't visible anyway.

Stepping away from GI, light is an absolute fucking god-send in the bush. A few well-placed flashes can turn the tide of a raid very quickly, or secure an advantage to begin with. Hell, a flash light alone is worth it's weight in gold in a fight, whether or not it's attached to a firearm.

Also, systems as I described in the post you mentioned are issued and used. Pistols meant to be more than sidearms don't come bare. It depends on what you're up to, but there are applications for a "system" rather than a weapon.

I'm not saying everyone should have junk bolted all over their handgun, but to suggest a rail serves no important purpose, or is perhaps a detriment, is not logical at all.

Cheers,

Kennith

This is all silly talk Kennith, doesn't amount to much. Glock puts the rails on their handguns for a reason. If you keep your weapon bedside and hear an intruder at night you'll wish you had that light for a number of reasons.

You can't get to your light switch in time and don't own the 'clapper'
You could potentially scare off the intruder avoiding any conflict at all
You can see what you're shooting in the middle of the night or end up like Oscar Pistorius

I see your point, can't be any more crystal clear.
 
Jan 3, 2005
11,746
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On Kennith's private island
This is all silly talk Kennith, doesn't amount to much. Glock puts the rails on their handguns for a reason. If you keep your weapon bedside and hear an intruder at night you'll wish you had that light for a number of reasons. You can't get to your light switch in time and don't own the 'clapper' You could potentially scare off the intruder avoiding any conflict at all You can see what you're shooting in the middle of the night or end up like Oscar Pistorius I see your point, can't be any more crystal clear.

Why would you use a flashlight, or a pistol, as your go to home defense weapon?
 

p m

Administrator
Staff member
Apr 19, 2004
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www.3rj.org
Why would you use a flashlight, or a pistol, as your go to home defense weapon?
Why Dan, it's a silly question. So that the intruder knows you're there with a tactical flashlight. It just might scare the living shit out of him/her (by God, maybe this flashlight is even attached to a rail on a Glock?), so you'll save a round.
What a logic there...
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
Why would you use a flashlight, or a pistol, as your go to home defense weapon?

Dan,

Would you suggest the trusty 12 gauge? This would be the wrong answer if so.

Think maneuverability, getting though door frames, walking down stairs things like that. A handgun with home defense rounds are the only way to go IMO if I feel my life is threatened in my own home.
 

brian4d

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
6,499
67
High Point, NC
Why Dan, it's a silly question. So that the intruder knows you're there with a tactical flashlight. It just might scare the living shit out of him/her (by God, maybe this flashlight is even attached to a rail on a Glock?), so you'll save a round.
What a logic there...

My experience tells me not to shoot in the dark.
 

Ballah06

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2007
5,638
16
Savannah, GA
i dont really understand the argument against rails and flashlights specifically. Picture you are asleep, its middle of the night and you sense someone is in your house - someone who doesnt belong. Granted you have your weapon closeby you grab it and start clearing the premises. Having a flashlight, mind you each one i ve ever seen comes with an on/off button, affords you the opportunity to utilize that devoce fast and as needed. Having a separate flashlight isreasonable too, but further complicates proper rapid employment.
 
Jan 3, 2005
11,746
73
On Kennith's private island
http://www.discoweb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7271


OK, you want the ultimate home-defense shotgun? Too easy. Just fly over to New York, London, or Paris and have Holland & Holland make a short-barrelled, hammer-pattern, Paradox for you:

h&hparadox-1.jpg

The Paradox looks very non-threatening, so it is more politically acceptable than the Benelli Super 90 or Remington 870.

The Paradox is also a very reliable weapon, as there is no repeating mechanism to malfunction. The two separate barrels and two independent firing mechanisms means that in the very unlikely event that one firing mechanism fails, the other will still function perfectly and you can keep on shooting.

The two independent firing mechanisms, with two separate and independent triggers, is a significant advantage. You can load one chamber with buckshot and another with a single projectile. You can choose which barrel will fire depending on which trigger you pull. If someone is standing in the open, just tag him with the buckshot. If he suddenly jumps behind a wall for cover, select the single projectile and shoot right through his "cover". If he's at long range, just tag him with the single projectile.

The defensive shotgun, by its very nature, is a very range-dependent weapon. If you are going to utilize the defensive shotgun effectively, you must understand the nature of its ammunition and its limitations.

In the so-called "A" range, the shot pattern is still together and the weapon must be carefully aimed or you will have a clean miss. If you think you can wave the shotgun at something and hit it, this is erroneous. When the shot charge leaves the muzzle, it's the same size as the muzzle. It takes range for the shot charge to open. For most cylinder-bore shotguns firing OO buckshot, the A range is 0-5 yards. In the A range, the shot charge is either still together or so together that it effectively is a single projectile and must be treated as such or you will miss. At this short range, the shotgun offers no forgiveness over the rifle.

In the "B" range, the shot charge spreads to its optimum size, with all or most of its shot impacting the k-zone of the intended target and yet offering a measure of forgiveness that the rifle does not. For most cylinder-bore shotguns firing buckshot, this distance is 10-25 yards. If you're frazzled or you're firing at a moving target or the light is dim or all of the above, the shotgun in the B range delivers power and forgiveness matched by no other small arm.

The "C" range is where a single projectile, i.e., slug, is required for effective terminal performance. This range for most cylinder-bore shotguns is beyond 25 yards. If you fire buckshot at your target in the C range, you may obtain a hit or hits, but don't count on that to stop your adversary. Beyond 25 yards, a good portion of the standard nine-pellet OO Buck load miss the target entirely from most cylinder-bore guns. If you doubt this, try patterning your shotgun and your load at a torso target 75 feet away. You may be surprised at what you see. At these ranges, you may tag your target with a few pellets beyond 25 yards, but those few pellets usually will not deliver a terminal blow to your target as the pellets are few in number and shed velocity quickly.

That is why the shotgun is a very range-dependent weapon. It must be aimed carefully at the A range because its shot charge is still compacted and has not yet had a chance to open up. In the B range, the shotgun reigns supreme. It delivers a terminal blow to the target and yet offers higher hit probability against moving targets, in dim light, etc. In the C range, the shotgun cannot be counted upon to produce reliable stops against motivated human adversaries. This transition from A to B to C happens in only 25 yards.

The A/B/C transition is different for every shotgun and every load. You must pattern your shotgun using your load to see where the A/B/C transitions will happen for you.

This is one reason the Paradox is so suitable for home shotgunning. Unlike a repeater, the shooter can make the switch from buckshot to slug instantly. If a long shot presents itself or you must shoot through something, there is no need to switch the shell in the chamber. Simply move your finger from one trigger to the other.

Some advocate the use of slugs exclusively in defense shotguns. This is absurd. If you're going to give up the shotgun's greater forgiveness in the B range, why use a shotgun at all? If you're going to fire single projectiles exclusively through your shotgun, get a rifle instead. A rifle has greater reach, terminal effect, hard-target penetration, and accuracy over a slug and has less recoil.

And if you think the shotgun's lack of penetration in hard targets with birdshot and buckshot is an advantage, think again. This is a bad thing, not a good thing. This is true no matter what wannabe's like Masaad Ayoob says. Shotgun ammunition offers little to no hard target penetration. Standard 00 buckshot will not even penetrate the average automobile windshield. It's pathetic. You need slug capability in every defensive shotgun, both for reach and for penetrative power through cover.

And unlike a smoothbore firing a slug, the Paradox is capable of substantial reach. The Paradox has a unique combination of smooth bore and rifled bore:

h&hparadox-5.jpg

This unique combination enables the Paradox to pattern shot very well and also shoot single projectiles more accurately than any smoothbore weapon.

Holland's are essentially bespoke gun makers, so they can make a Paradox for you with 18.1" barrels. The gun will be legal in all 50 states, so you can take it with you wherever you reside. A double with 18" barrels is also substantially shorter and handier than a repeater with 18" barrels, and is much more suitable for cleaning house and firing indoors.

Holland's will also measure you for gun fit and will tailor the buttstock dimensions to you. Thus, your Paradox will point better for you than any repeater would. The Paradox will also swing better for you.

The Paradox is also more suited for long-term storage inside a closet or under the bed or on top of the book shelf or whatever:



Being a hammer gun, the Paradox may be kept loaded indefinitely with all springs at rest. There is no hammer spring or magazine spring to remain compressed for long periods and possibly fail. Just load the weapon, lower the hammers under control, cover the muzzles with Scotch tape to prevent insects or mice from possibly forming nests within the barrels, and shelf the gun. You can leave the weapon like this literally for decades without touching it, and it's guaranteed to function properly when you fire it in anger. The same cannot be said for a Super 90 or 870.

If you want a Holland's Paradox, it's easy enough to get one. The cost is only $150,000 or so and there's a two-year wait.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
The issue is not about shooting in the dark, but about co-location of the light source and the weapon.

White is a quick flash to blind and identify, and IR is constant for use with NVGs.

You're not meant to walk around like a moron with a light on, illustrating your position to anyone with functional eyes.

The fact that people don't know how to use lights doesn't diminish their effectiveness in trained hands.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

rovercanus

Well-known member
Apr 24, 2004
9,651
246
Hmmm... I think I'm going to mount a light on my board with nails. It's got to be a Surefire because that's the most expensive and it's what the operators use.
 
Jan 25, 2010
3,544
4
your moms bed
White is a quick flash to blind and identify, and IR is constant for use with NVGs.

You're not meant to walk around like a moron with a light on, illustrating your position to anyone with functional eyes.

The fact that people don't know how to use lights doesn't diminish their effectiveness in trained hands.

Cheers,

Kennith

How many people have you killed with just your pinky?