iTunes Sucks

[MM3846]

I didn't read the thread but...

Can I ask what you're listening on to warrant the need for lossless WAV? Spotify premium is 320kbps and I can barely tell the difference in 90% of my listening. Only at work using studio quality equipment can I hear compression, and that's only when my coworker is playing jazz stuff or the occasional hihat hit on a good rock record.

 

[kennith]

I didn't read the thread but...

Can I ask what you're listening on to warrant the need for lossless WAV? Spotify premium is 320kbps and I can barely tell the difference in 90% of my listening. Only at work using studio quality equipment can I hear compression, and that's only when my coworker is playing jazz stuff or the occasional hihat hit on a good rock record.

If you listen to any manner of metal, you require the best recording you can get your paws on, and at least three drivers per stereo channel. Any compression at all completely destroys it, and no full-range driver can even come close to coping.

Blind Guardian in particular is impossible to reproduce worth a damn without an outstanding setup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c98gIxCe1zo

Turisas is another band that is destroyed by even the slightest hint of substandard playback.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xkvm89nCDY

While they can be played and understood well enough on any system, Manowar's exceptional studio wizardry and incredibly high standards will be flat-out insulted if your system shits on their parade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL_A1aG4q08

Nightwish is yet one more that's absolutely butchered by sub-standard reproduction. Listen this one all the way through, even if you don't like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPfItACWBrg

On a properly tailored system, with a good recording, the soundstage is impossibly expansive, with every instrument and vocalist wrapped all around you, near and far, right and left.

Everything you hear in there is real, and should not be compressed; there's just too much going on.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[kennith]

The pictured array from my stereo pair is barely sufficient for some recordings, and I'll be damned if I'm sending them anything that's not loss-less.

The quality of the media does matter, depending upon the recording itself, as well as the complexity of the music. This trend toward giving up quality for convenience bugs the hell out of me.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[ukoffroad]

There are lots of hi Rez download sites. At some point I have to admit though that my ability to hear all the tiniest details is just a not a rabbit hole I care to go down, and I am lucky enough to have a listening room. I find myself fiddling with speaker placement at times but have not felt the need to start replacing CDs with downloads.

Speakers with that many drivers can get really expensive to do well. I prefer electrostatics but not much left out there, and they are so damn big and power hungry. I take it you are not a tube guy?

 

[MM3846]

The pictured array from my stereo pair is barely sufficient for some recordings, and I'll be damned if I'm sending them anything that's not loss-less.

The quality of the media does matter, depending upon the recording itself, as well as the complexity of the music. This trend toward giving up quality for convenience bugs the hell out of me.

Cheers,

Kennith

I've installed and worked on plenty of systems up in the six figure range wearing marantz, b&w, triage, whatever badges, and there comes a point where the hi-fi world is just an gear circlejerk, and you seem like you're right there. Not saying you can't hear the difference between garbage and good quality, but there are very,very, few people who can hear the difference from a $1500 system and a $15,000 system (I'm not one of them). I'm not even going to try listening to those videos, because youtube's 480p audio bitrate is 128kbps.

 

[varova87]

The pictured array from my stereo pair is barely sufficient for some recordings, and I'll be damned if I'm sending them anything that's not loss-less.

Tell me that photo was taken sometime around '89.

Get your damn self some new curtains! Those things are hideous

 

[kennith]

Tell me that photo was taken sometime around '89.

Get your damn self some new curtains! Those things are hideous

:rofl:

They work in my place, but wouldn't look very good in a more modern setting.

My walls are a very dark matte, slate green, and decorated with various things I've come across in travels, as well as a few of my swords. It's a bit of a museum in here, but not cluttered.

I thought the curtains looked a bit like those in a movie theater, and that's why I picked them up. I've also got sensitive eyes, so I need something in here that's going to keep the light out.

Remember, I live alone, so nobody can tell me what to hang where.atriot:

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[kennith]

I've installed and worked on plenty of systems up in the six figure range wearing marantz, b&w, triage, whatever badges, and there comes a point where the hi-fi world is just an gear circlejerk, and you seem like you're right there. Not saying you can't hear the difference between garbage and good quality, but there are very,very, few people who can hear the difference from a $1500 system and a $15,000 system (I'm not one of them). I'm not even going to try listening to those videos, because youtube's 480p audio bitrate is 128kbps.

I'm sort of at the tipping point in regard to price.

Tubes and turntables are cool and all, but they are too much of a hassle. I don't even use multiple amplifiers anymore. That stuff just takes up too much room, and while the improvement is there, it's not enough to justify the headache for me at this point.

As for media, I can absolutely hear the difference when compression is at play, especially with complex metal recordings. I'm not into voodoo nonsense, but the difference is night and day when the recording reaches a certain point.

One of my favorite bands uses an accordion, as an example, and that will muddy the hell out of the rest of the recording if it's not handled properly. You need every little bit of data, because the receiving end can only do so much guesswork.

For certain music, it's not that big of a deal, but if you try to play Blind Guardian without a solid signal, it's just a total mess. It's absolutely horrible. This isn't a matter of trying to create a perfect sound-stage or spending hours with a spectrum analyzer, it's a matter of being able to hear what's going on or not.

If I was off my rocker with this stuff, I'd have ditched the tile floor.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[kennith]

I take it you are not a tube guy?

I like them, but it's a pain in the ass to maintain a system like that in a living environment, and they really aren't as transparent as people believe, when compared with fairly new modern systems.

I personally don't think they provide an improvement in sound. They are simply different.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[bri]

I've installed and worked on plenty of systems up in the six figure range wearing marantz, b&w, triage, whatever badges, and there comes a point where the hi-fi world is just an gear circlejerk, and you seem like you're right there. Not saying you can't hear the difference between garbage and good quality, but there are very,very, few people who can hear the difference from a $1500 system and a $15,000 system (I'm not one of them). I'm not even going to try listening to those videos, because youtube's 480p audio bitrate is 128kbps.

It is really unfortunate that you cannot hear the difference, I am sorry for your hearing loss.

If someone cannot tell the difference between a $1500 and $15,000 audio system, then it does not matter that much about how they encoded it or play it back.

Training will help though. It is easy to train your ear to hear the subtle noises and sounds from a good audio system. Listening to music live, perfect pitch and other musical skills or talent helps. Then go back to a crappy audio system to hear the difference.

If you were going to go buy a $1500 audio system, it is very easy to find music that will extend beyond the dynamic range of the system and also within the range of human hearing. It would also be very easy to buy a system for 15k that has better frequency range and response. Unless something is really wrong or you have a really untrained ear and are tone deaf, it should be easy to tell the difference.

 

[seventyfive]

If you listen to any manner of metal, you require the best recording you can get your paws on, and at least three drivers per stereo channel. Any compression at all completely destroys it, and no full-range driver can even come close to coping.

Cheers,

Kennith

Years ago, before we had children, I was looking to get a new receiver and speakers. I took my and justice for all cd to several boutique hifi stores. The first 2 minutes of blackened is what I had the salesman play...only set up that sounded very very good was a mackintosh receiver and BW monitors. One day if the duffel bag of cash falls out of the sky maybe I'll buy that set up. Another good test Is Morphine's Buena, raspy vocals and great production.

A friend down in Charlottesville built a tube receiver and has some very good speakers. Even an MP3 sounds very good on that thing.

 

[MM3846]

It is really unfortunate that you cannot hear the difference, I am sorry for your hearing loss.

If someone cannot tell the difference between a $1500 and $15,000 audio system, then it does not matter that much about how they encoded it or play it back.

Training will help though. It is easy to train your ear to hear the subtle noises and sounds from a good audio system. Listening to music live, perfect pitch and other musical skills or talent helps. Then go back to a crappy audio system to hear the difference.

If you were going to go buy a $1500 audio system, it is very easy to find music that will extend beyond the dynamic range of the system and also within the range of human hearing. It would also be very easy to buy a system for 15k that has better frequency range and response. Unless something is really wrong or you have a really untrained ear and are tone deaf, it should be easy to tell the difference.

In my experience, 9/10 people ditched their 5-6 year old insane quality super high end system for a Sonos setup and thought it sounded better. Does sonos sound good? Yea, its very good what for it is.. but it is far from the best. If you think the majority of consumers know what to listen for or what makes one thing better than the other, you are intensely wrong. These arguments come up all the time and it's all a giant circle jerk. A great room can make a mediocre system sound better than a top end system in a shit room. At the top end of audio, you are paying 100% more for a 10% increase in quality that 1% of people will be able to discern.

It's like buying a bugatti veyron. sure, its the fastest car in the world. but how much better really is a $1.7 mil veyron than a $400k lambo aventador? is it really worth the $1.3 mil extra for a 254 mph top speed instead of 218?

 

[kennith]

A great room can make a mediocre system sound better than a top end system in a shit room.

See your local Bose dealer to hear what a good room can do for a shit sound system.

My room isn't perfect. The tile floor is partially offset by the drop ceiling, but aside from careful tuning and speaker placement, not much has been done. That being the case, there is a limit to how far I can go within reason.

I can't play past steel studs and a tile floor. I've got a good array of drivers, and they are receiving good signals, and that's about all I'm willing to do now, but it's enough.

It's like buying a bugatti veyron. sure, its the fastest car in the world. but how much better really is a $1.7 mil veyron than a $400k lambo aventador? is it really worth the $1.3 mil extra for a 254 mph top speed instead of 218?

People buy a Veyron because they want a Veyron; not because they want a car.

It's a marvel of engineering, even if it can be approached and even surpassed by cheaper vehicles. It's the ultimate "Best of" album for motor vehicles. Anyone can find something to appreciate when examining a Veyron.

I wouldn't buy one, personally. They make me think of buying a business jet.

I'm more of a Lamborghini man, because I think any car that costs more than two hundred grand should be as stupidly wonderful as the price tag. I love that these things exist, but I don't like the ones that take themselves seriously, because there's nothing serious about them.

You're right to compare these vehicles to speakers. Some of these crazy towers reach tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's fine if you like the design and exclusivity, but when it comes right down to it, anyone who believes they are paying that much for sound has a screw loose.

At some point, you've got to think about the equipment they used in the studio...

The goal of HiFi is to get the hell out of the way of the signal. Now, you need to buy your way past the "voiced" drivers, and into something that can handle the power you want, but beyond that you're pretty much done.

It does take a few dollars to reach that point, but not tens of thousands. If you only want a stereo setup, it's not bad at all, but that's kind of a stupid move when a gigantic flat screen is smack in the middle of the room.

You may as well have some powerful surround to go with it.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[bri]

In my experience, 9/10 people ditched their 5-6 year old insane quality super high end system for a Sonos setup and thought it sounded better. Does sonos sound good? Yea, its very good what for it is.. but it is far from the best. If you think the majority of consumers know what to listen for or what makes one thing better than the other, you are intensely wrong. These arguments come up all the time and it's all a giant circle jerk. A great room can make a mediocre system sound better than a top end system in a shit room. At the top end of audio, you are paying 100% more for a 10% increase in quality that 1% of people will be able to discern.

It's like buying a bugatti veyron. sure, its the fastest car in the world. but how much better really is a $1.7 mil veyron than a $400k lambo aventador? is it really worth the $1.3 mil extra for a 254 mph top speed instead of 218?

I think you have been taking part in enough of these "circle jerks", that you just take up the same argument no matter what the discussion. I have not brought up an average consumer, 9/10 people. listening conditions, "insane quality". You did.

What I am arguing is your comment "very, very few people can tell the difference between a $1500 and $15000 system". Lame comparison metric for sure.

I would definitely say that there are very very few people that care about the difference in audio quality between a $1500 and $15000 system.

Of these few I am certain that I could train some of them to discern the difference. Whether they would care or buy a similar system is their choice.

To some people money doesn't matter, so "worth it" really does not matter and I suspect that most of your circle jerk buddies really should be discussing that vs whether you can hear the difference. Its also a matter of perception and preference. You want a Bugatti? Have at it, can I go for a ride? You want some 500k B&M speakers have at it. I'll gladly help with the install.

 

[jymmiejamz]

People buy a Veyron because they have no taste, otherwise they would have bought a Koenigsegg.

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[bri]

I guess I am one of the very, very few that doesn't care to compare those cars. But I must say that the orange/black paint job on the Bugatti looks like crap.

Now back to how iTunes used to really suck and now just sucks slightly less.

 

[SGaynor]

Here ya go Kennith:

http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/5/7493145/new-sony-walkman-zx2-ces-2015

 

[kennith]

Here ya go Kennith:

http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/5/7493145/new-sony-walkman-zx2-ces-2015

The damned thing isn't even made in Japan. Fuck it.

I like the meat, though. I can't stand all this modern thin crap.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[p m]

Here ya go Kennith:

http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/5/7493145/new-sony-walkman-zx2-ces-2015

$1199 for a Sony Walkman?

The whole "high-end sound" discussion reminded me of my last flight from Moscow to LA - 2 days short of 11 years ago. Next to me sat a salesman of "high-end sound equipment." The guy was a classic humanities-degree reject of techno society, finding a job in a field he had no fucking clue about.

The pinnacle of our conversation occurred when he brought up a "high-end CD player" model he was selling, with ... I shit you not, granite platter. People somehow bought into the old-time LP turntable heavy-platter crap while dealing with digitized data - that could be read, written, copied, reproduced gazillion times without any respect to the timing fidelity of mechanical drive.

Kennith, if you can't tell the difference in sound between a tube and semiconductor amp, you're listening to some very shitty music (that means I give you credit for good ear).

 

[ChrismonDA]

Haven't used Itunes in a long time, Amazon is what I use now. Apple sucks.

Amazon is brilliant especially if you have a Prime account so much music.