Kneeling NFL players

[seventyfive]

Mike,

You should come live in the South for a year. Your mind would be blown. My older brother just completed a Habitat for Humanity home this past Saturday. He's a contractor and it's childsplay for him, does it all the time.

if ive said it once ive said it a million times...i do live in the south. unlike you sissies im on the front line. we have yankees living amongst us!!! they're right accross the border with their dunkin donuts and sheetz and kfc.

its like berlin circa 1965 up here.

trust me i know the good people of the south take the military stuff a lot truer to heart than the yankees living 10 clicks north of my house.

 

[brian4d]

if ive said it once ive said it a million times...i do live in the south. unlike you sissies im on the front line. we have yankees living amongst us!!! they're right accross the border with their dunkin donuts and sheetz and kfc.

its like berlin circa 1965 up here.

trust me i know the good people of the south take the military stuff a lot truer to heart than the yankees living 10 clicks north of my house.

You mentioned hockey (which I love to watch BTW) and I was not aware Hockey Arenas existed South of the Mason Dixon. I'm kidding or course.

 

[brian4d]

After poking around on various sites and speaking with others on this issue I came across this letter to John Elway from an Army VET. I thought it was worth sharing. Ray and Mike, this is the other viewpoint.

 

[kk88rrc]

You mentioned hockey (which I love to watch BTW) and I was not aware Hockey Arenas existed South of the Mason Dixon. I'm kidding or course.

They shouldn't exist south of the MD line. If you're local pond does not freeze in the winter then you shouldn't play hockey.

The NFL should lose the pads & helmets and play rugby! A true gentleman's sport. atriot:

 

[1920SF]

After poking around on various sites and speaking with others on this issue I came across this letter to John Elway from an Army VET. I thought it was worth sharing. Ray and Mike, this is the other viewpoint.

Lots of viewpoints, from lots of vets-b/c they are all over the political spectrum (even if they tend to lean conservative as a group). When you poked around and spoke to others, did they point you to the letter to Kapernick from an Army vet about kneeling vice sitting?

(I would note that this is back when this was actually an issue, and then it died down, and then it became an issue again b/c....b/c the President-at a political rally in AL for a dude (that lost) used it as fodder for the audience)

http://www.armytimes.com/opinion/20...rnick-from-a-green-beret-turned-long-snapper/

You may find this interesting too, just the title speaks volumes:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...er_of_using_veterans_as_a_political_prop.html
Thank You for Your Service, Whoever You Are



Opponents of the NFL protests have reduced ?the troops? to a monolithic prop. The truth is a lot more complicated.

As far as the anthem and such, be mindful of selective history. Afterall, it wasn't even the anthem officially till...1931. So that whole 'back till the 1800's' stuff has some valdity but isn't a complete picture. Nevermind that it wasn't always at sporting events writ large and all manner of other complicated details that cloud the matter up.


While I would tend to concur with you about volunteering being what America is all about, I don't know that you could necessariy call it patriotic. I mean you could call it just being a good human being. Some call it being a good christian. I suppose it could be all those things-but in short I'm not sure that holding the door for someone connotes to righteous indignation with regard to the NFL taking exception to the political fodder tossed out to rile up a subsection of society (that further distracted from far more substantive aspects of what is going on, aka the SOP for the reality TV show of our nation right now).


r-
Ray

 

[brian4d]

Lots of viewpoints, from lots of vets-b/c they are all over the political spectrum (even if they tend to lean conservative as a group). When you poked around and spoke to others, did they point you to the letter to Kapernick from an Army vet about kneeling vice sitting?

(I would note that this is back when this was actually an issue, and then it died down, and then it became an issue again b/c....b/c the President-at a political rally in AL for a dude (that lost) used it as fodder for the audience)

http://www.armytimes.com/opinion/20...rnick-from-a-green-beret-turned-long-snapper/

You may find this interesting too, just the title speaks volumes:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...er_of_using_veterans_as_a_political_prop.html
Thank You for Your Service, Whoever You Are



Opponents of the NFL protests have reduced ?the troops? to a monolithic prop. The truth is a lot more complicated.

As far as the anthem and such, be mindful of selective history. Afterall, it wasn't even the anthem officially till...1931. So that whole 'back till the 1800's' stuff has some valdity but isn't a complete picture. Nevermind that it wasn't always at sporting events writ large and all manner of other complicated details that cloud the matter up.


While I would tend to concur with you about volunteering being what America is all about, I don't know that you could necessariy call it patriotic. I mean you could call it just being a good human being. Some call it being a good christian. I suppose it could be all those things-but in short I'm not sure that holding the door for someone connotes to righteous indignation with regard to the NFL taking exception to the political fodder tossed out to rile up a subsection of society (that further distracted from far more substantive aspects of what is going on, aka the SOP for the reality TV show of our nation right now).


r-
Ray

Ray,

Patriotic is showing love for ones country and people, however you act upon that is up to the individual, so is the perception. There is no right or wrong way IMO.

I would refer you back to Mgreenspan's article he posted. Trump didn't stat this fight, he may actually finish it though.

http://theresurgent.com/donald-trump-did-not-start-this-but-he-will-finish-it-and-he-will-win/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-football-is-a-ratings-game-the-nfl-can-t-win

As far as the 1800's and 1931 we are both kind of off the mark even though Union Soldiers used it routinely during the Civil War (Kind of Ironic right?).

Woodrow Wilson Singed an executive order in 1916 signifying the Star Spangled Banner our Official American Anthem.

Lastly, this is a good watch for everyone one this thread that may be interested.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/IrV8QPQAhxo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[1920SF]

Ray,

Patriotic is showing love for ones country and people, however you act upon that is up to the individual, so is the perception. There is no right or wrong way IMO.

I would refer you back to Mgreenspan's article he posted. Trump didn't stat this fight, he may actually finish it though.

http://theresurgent.com/donald-trump-did-not-start-this-but-he-will-finish-it-and-he-will-win/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-football-is-a-ratings-game-the-nfl-can-t-win

As far as the 1800's and 1931 we are both kind of off the mark even though Union Soldiers used it routinely during the Civil War (Kind of Ironic right?).

Woodrow Wilson Singed an executive order in 1916 signifying the Star Spangled Banner our Official American Anthem.

Lastly, this is a good watch for everyone one this thread that may be interested.

Actually the definition of patriotic is a bit more nuanced then just doing what feels right, if we're going with what the dictionary says: having or expressing devotion to and vigorous support for one's country. So I guess so long as you express devotion, and then act vigorously (in your own way) we could agree-but I think it goes a little beyond your view of what it is. In my opinion.

So to your point; Trump re-started something that had died off.
Of course I would challenge you about the 'but he may finish it' comment-given his record at present that would be one of very few things that got finished (how does one finish it?).

More to the point, the idea that he should insert himself into such a fight-and that everyone says 'well the NFL should just go along' is back to that whole Johnny is the only one in the band in step, everyone else should just get in step with him kind of arguement.

The articles you posted don't actually counter the idea that it was done to distract from the rest of the circus either.

You know, things like the DPRK situation, the Russia investigation, the inabiity (again) to pass a repeal/replace, Puerto Rico hurricane response, the drained swamp cadre's personal use of taxpayer funds for travel...

But this is important, and he can 'finish' this?
Ok.

We'll see.

I'll bet you this; ratings go down for a minute (that is unclear, BTW-hasn't happened, yet) and by the end of the year Americans notorious attention span will have them back watching football.

That's ok though, some other political fodder will come up to distract from substance.
r-
Ray

 

[brian4d]

Actually the definition of patriotic is a bit more nuanced then just doing what feels right, if we're going with what the dictionary says: having or expressing devotion to and vigorous support for one's country. So I guess so long as you express devotion, and then act vigorously (in your own way) we could agree-but I think it goes a little beyond your view of what it is. In my opinion.

So to your point; Trump re-started something that had died off.
Of course I would challenge you about the 'but he may finish it' comment-given his record at present that would be one of very few things that got finished (how does one finish it?).

More to the point, the idea that he should insert himself into such a fight-and that everyone says 'well the NFL should just go along' is back to that whole Johnny is the only one in the band in step, everyone else should just get in step with him kind of arguement.

The articles you posted don't actually counter the idea that it was done to distract from the rest of the circus either.

You know, things like the DPRK situation, the Russia investigation, the inabiity (again) to pass a repeal/replace, Puerto Rico hurricane response, the drained swamp cadre's personal use of taxpayer funds for travel...

But this is important, and he can 'finish' this?
Ok.

We'll see.

I'll bet you this; ratings go down for a minute (that is unclear, BTW-hasn't happened, yet) and by the end of the year Americans notorious attention span will have them back watching football.

That's ok though, some other political fodder will come up to distract from substance.
r-
Ray

Pulling Trump back into this but the problem is bigger than Trump Ray, you must see that. There were a number of players still kneeling before Trump made one single comment. To say the issue was 'died down' or 'almost gone' is simply not reality. You and I both know the next major broadcast of a White cop shooting would have done Trumps job just fine. Either way, protest may be necessary but the topic at hand is this the right time and the right way. The majority of Americans say no. Well... According to 'polls'.....

 

[SCSL]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-28/networks-told-nfl-cameramen-avoid-shots-booing-crowds

 

[1920SF]

Pulling Trump back into this but the problem is bigger than Trump Ray, you must see that. There were a number of players still kneeling before Trump made one single comment. To say the issue was 'died down' or 'almost gone' is simply not reality. You and I both know the next major broadcast of a White cop shooting would have done Trumps job just fine. Either way, protest may be necessary but the topic at hand is this the right time and the right way. The majority of Americans say no. Well... According to 'polls'.....

How many players were kneeling before Trump threw it out? This season?

But to your point, since you want to reference polls. Which ones? Asking which question? Seems like those might have shifted. Fake news!
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...uring-anthem-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKCN1C1304

More to the point protests aren't for what the majority think is ok, you must realize that right, it is for what the minorities view as the way to air out what is wrong to seek change. So even if a majority think it is the wrong thing to do, perhaps it still moves that famed window of discussion (as we see in the changing of the polls-i.e. what really matters, is the view on the matter changing).

Here's some well thought out, substantive, commentary on the matter: http://thehill.com/opinion/white-ho...-trump-versus-nfl-standing-up-for-free-speech

But you are correct; the issue hasn't gone away. Do you think POTUS is making it better?
Is this the most pressing issue at hand right now?

I return back to my comment; American attention span will have folks watching football before this is 'solved' (whatever that means).

 

[brian4d]

How many players were kneeling before Trump threw it out? This season?

But to your point, since you want to reference polls. Which ones? Asking which question? Seems like those might have shifted. Fake news!
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...uring-anthem-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKCN1C1304

More to the point protests aren't for what the majority think is ok, you must realize that right, it is for what the minorities view as the way to air out what is wrong to seek change. So even if a majority think it is the wrong thing to do, perhaps it still moves that famed window of discussion (as we see in the changing of the polls-i.e. what really matters, is the view on the matter changing).

Here's some well thought out, substantive, commentary on the matter: http://thehill.com/opinion/white-ho...-trump-versus-nfl-standing-up-for-free-speech

But you are correct; the issue hasn't gone away. Do you think POTUS is making it better?
Is this the most pressing issue at hand right now?

I return back to my comment; American attention span will have folks watching football before this is 'solved' (whatever that means).

Ray, actually a lot of players were still protesting before Trump spoke. I appreciate your efforts to keep pulling Trump into this debate but we can all multi-task. I'm satisfied, Rand and Trump are still chipping away at an Obamacare plan and it seems Tax reform is being worked on even though that will take an act of god. Rome wasn't built in a day. Question is, will the leftist ideals destroy American football? Can yo you speak to just that?

Did you catch Rush last night? Thought provoking.

Here is the list of players protesting. Trump spoke the beginning of week 3.

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/...ing-the-national-anthem-of-the-2017-preseason

 

[SGaynor]

Here's some well thought out, substantive, commentary on the matter: http://thehill.com/opinion/white-ho...-trump-versus-nfl-standing-up-for-free-speech

I've always liked Hayden. Now that I know he's a die-hard Steelers fan? Awesome!

Now, that guy is what you find when you look up 'Patriot' in the dictionary.

 

[SGaynor]

Here is the list of players protesting. Trump spoke the beginning of week 3.

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/...ing-the-national-anthem-of-the-2017-preseason

Once again, you fail to see the forest for the trees.

There was a small percentage of players "protesting." (Is taking a knee really protesting? I thought taking a knee was a sign of fealty?)

Then Trump fired up the inner carnival barker in himself, and what happened? The WHOLE NFL protested.

 

[brian4d]

Once again, you fail to see the forest for the trees.

There was a small percentage of players "protesting." (Is taking a knee really protesting? I thought taking a knee was a sign of fealty?)

Then Trump fired up the inner carnival barker in himself, and what happened? The WHOLE NFL protested.

Scott Really? You're smarter than this. One more cop killing, one more riot (which will happen) and it's all fired up again. This issue is bigger than Trump. You and the media are giving Trump the airtime that's going to get him elected again 3 years from now. You've been Trumped, again.

 

[SGaynor]

Scarborough gives a good essay on true patriot vs fake patriot:

Do I even know you anymore?

The guys I came up with in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and northwest Florida for more than 40 years would never boo a former American prisoner of war ? especially one who refused to return home until the enemy released every one of his buddies in the prison camp. Southern guys like us loved that ?leave no man behind? ethos when John Wayne or Sylvester Stallone exhibited it on movie screens. So why would you even think of booing a man, now fighting for his life, who showed that true grit in real life?

But boo Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) you did, at the behest of President Trump during a rally in Alabama last week.

Mike Allen of Axios further reported this week that Trump has been ?physically mocking? the thumbs-down gesture McCain used to deliver the deciding vote against the Republican health-care bill in July. Did that mocking involve an imitation of McCain?s stiff arm movements? In case you haven?t read a newspaper in the 45 years since we played on the same Dixie Youth Baseball team together, McCain got the hell beaten out of him by the communists who held him in the Hanoi Hilton for more than five years.

At that same time, Trump was dodging the draft by claiming that bone spurs stopped him from serving his country in uniform. And yet this crippling condition didn?t stop the spoiled Ivy League student from playing football, tennis and golf. After four draft deferments, Trump graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in 1968 on the same day 40 U.S. servicemen were killed in Vietnam.

Meanwhile, McCain continued receiving the beatings that would forever leave him incapable of lifting his arms over his head. He kept enduring torture because he refused to leave his band of brothers behind.

Do you have that kind of character? If you booed McCain at last week?s rally, don?t bother answering. Someone has obviously failed you in your life; you probably need to spend some time figuring out who that was. And if you still go to church, you may also want to pray for all those around you who put tribal politics ahead of basic humanity.

 

[SGaynor]

Or the Super of the Air Force Academy making clear where he stands on racism:

"It's the power that we come from all walks of life, that we come from all parts of this country, that we come from all races, that we come from all backgrounds, gender, all make-up, all upbringing," he said. "The power of that diversity comes together and makes us that much more powerful."

"If you can?t treat someone from another race or different color skin with dignity and respect, then you need to get out," Silveria said. "If you can?t treat someone with dignity and respect, then get out."

 

[brian4d]

Scarborough gives a good essay on true patriot vs fake patriot:

Do I even know you anymore?

The guys I came up with in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and northwest Florida for more than 40 years would never boo a former American prisoner of war ? especially one who refused to return home until the enemy released every one of his buddies in the prison camp. Southern guys like us loved that ?leave no man behind? ethos when John Wayne or Sylvester Stallone exhibited it on movie screens. So why would you even think of booing a man, now fighting for his life, who showed that true grit in real life?

But boo Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) you did, at the behest of President Trump during a rally in Alabama last week.

Mike Allen of Axios further reported this week that Trump has been ?physically mocking? the thumbs-down gesture McCain used to deliver the deciding vote against the Republican health-care bill in July. Did that mocking involve an imitation of McCain?s stiff arm movements? In case you haven?t read a newspaper in the 45 years since we played on the same Dixie Youth Baseball team together, McCain got the hell beaten out of him by the communists who held him in the Hanoi Hilton for more than five years.

At that same time, Trump was dodging the draft by claiming that bone spurs stopped him from serving his country in uniform. And yet this crippling condition didn?t stop the spoiled Ivy League student from playing football, tennis and golf. After four draft deferments, Trump graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in 1968 on the same day 40 U.S. servicemen were killed in Vietnam.

Meanwhile, McCain continued receiving the beatings that would forever leave him incapable of lifting his arms over his head. He kept enduring torture because he refused to leave his band of brothers behind.

Do you have that kind of character? If you booed McCain at last week?s rally, don?t bother answering. Someone has obviously failed you in your life; you probably need to spend some time figuring out who that was. And if you still go to church, you may also want to pray for all those around you who put tribal politics ahead of basic humanity.

Doesn't this belong on the Trump thread? This is the NFL Players Kneeling thread Scott.

 

[SGaynor]

Doesn't this belong on the Trump thread? This is the NFL Players Kneeling thread Scott.

Talking about what a patriot is, is not. That's this thread.

And, BTW, back to the point about Trump lighting the fire on this...


This has been going on since last year. Yet you didn't start this thread until after Trump spoke. Why the sudden outrage?

 

[brian4d]

Talking about what a patriot is, is not. That's this thread.

And, BTW, back to the point about Trump lighting the fire on this...


This has been going on since last year. Yet you didn't start this thread until after Trump spoke. Why the sudden outrage?

Why don't you ask the media Scott? As far as I'm concerned I've been pissed since this started and rejoiced the day Kaepernick got let go.

 

[mjbrox]

Trump basically threw gasoline on a fire that was going to eventually burn its self out.

Remember he thinks he is the best negotiator and will be bringing these same inflammatory techniques to deal with Korea....