Politics, flags, etc...
- Thread starter seventyfive
- Start date
>> I respect the right to fly it upside down as a statement, but that doesnt make it an intelligent statement.
So it's unintelligent to fly a flag upside down? burn it? What about the bible? Some people that do this are extremely intelligent. Others are loonies. There is no correlation.
So it's unintelligent to fly a flag upside down? burn it? What about the bible? Some people that do this are extremely intelligent. Others are loonies. There is no correlation.
ptschram
Well-known member
I am most distressed by the fact that our government has shirked its responsibility and allowed 19 illegal aliens to perpetrate the worst act of terrorism our nation has seen.
bri said:
There is ample correlation, the flying of the flag uside down is a statement of the distress our country is in yet that distress is opinion vice fact. Something too many Americans view as one and the same. (facts/opinions). Intelligence doesn't ensure intelligent opinion.
The bible has nothing to do with this so I fail to see the relevance there.
this is my $.02, then hopefully this thread will die, and we can all agree to disagree.
we all have opinions and viewpoints that change over time wether from having children, traumatic experiences, or just getting older and seeing things differently. i remember getting into debates while taking a break in the shop in between flight ops about burning the flag, which bomb was the 'coolest' to load, who was the best shot with a .50 cal, typical military stuff. i was always on the side of here we are in the middle of the ocean potentially protecting an american's constitutional rights (because unless you're really at war, you aren't really protecting shit your just training). its actually a bit humbling to relinquish your god given constitutional rights and be subjected to the UCMJ....makes you really respect the rights and freedoms we do have as americans.
at the end of the day it's someone's right to say just about anything they wish, you can even say 'I'm going to kill you' as long as you have a good lawyer if you actually kill someone. our freedoms are double edged swords.
we can not argue it's someone's right to burn a flag, HOWEVER we can argue the validity of expressing that action. there is a time and place, as someone mentioned they burn flags at boy scout meets....well we had flag burning ceremonies aboard ship as well, there is a huge difference between proper burning and simply burning a flag for attention or making a statement.
most of us know the proper display and treatment of the ensign, we don't get too upset when someone drapes it over themselves when they win a gold, accidentally let it touch the ground when they are lowering it at dusk, yada yada...BUT FOR me flying the ensign upside down means something very different than joe public.
there is an expression 'go down with the ship', and during the time i served and the officers i served under i would have went down with that ship and i god damn guarantee that ensign would be flying proper until the last sailor drown holding it up. i love this country and there is absolutely nothing in the world like being on foreign soil and seeing it flying, it's like a child lost and finding their mother...and if the flag doesn't give you that feeling then you just don't get it.
this country is in it's current moral and economic situation because WE the people have been polarized to the point of deterioration, the line between right and wrong has been blurred to the point of invisibility, so in that regard i can understand someone showing their absolute disgust and confusion with the current state of affairs by finally just flying the ensign in distress, but that display should be reserved for the actual time marshall law has been declared and true americans need the help of true americans.
whoever took PT's flag should not have stolen it, but simply invert it to it's proper position and lowered his Gadsen ensign. FWIW, i used to fly the Navy Jack, proudly until nut job tea partiers started thinking i was one of them. funny how symbols get hijacked.
we all have opinions and viewpoints that change over time wether from having children, traumatic experiences, or just getting older and seeing things differently. i remember getting into debates while taking a break in the shop in between flight ops about burning the flag, which bomb was the 'coolest' to load, who was the best shot with a .50 cal, typical military stuff. i was always on the side of here we are in the middle of the ocean potentially protecting an american's constitutional rights (because unless you're really at war, you aren't really protecting shit your just training). its actually a bit humbling to relinquish your god given constitutional rights and be subjected to the UCMJ....makes you really respect the rights and freedoms we do have as americans.
at the end of the day it's someone's right to say just about anything they wish, you can even say 'I'm going to kill you' as long as you have a good lawyer if you actually kill someone. our freedoms are double edged swords.
we can not argue it's someone's right to burn a flag, HOWEVER we can argue the validity of expressing that action. there is a time and place, as someone mentioned they burn flags at boy scout meets....well we had flag burning ceremonies aboard ship as well, there is a huge difference between proper burning and simply burning a flag for attention or making a statement.
most of us know the proper display and treatment of the ensign, we don't get too upset when someone drapes it over themselves when they win a gold, accidentally let it touch the ground when they are lowering it at dusk, yada yada...BUT FOR me flying the ensign upside down means something very different than joe public.
there is an expression 'go down with the ship', and during the time i served and the officers i served under i would have went down with that ship and i god damn guarantee that ensign would be flying proper until the last sailor drown holding it up. i love this country and there is absolutely nothing in the world like being on foreign soil and seeing it flying, it's like a child lost and finding their mother...and if the flag doesn't give you that feeling then you just don't get it.
this country is in it's current moral and economic situation because WE the people have been polarized to the point of deterioration, the line between right and wrong has been blurred to the point of invisibility, so in that regard i can understand someone showing their absolute disgust and confusion with the current state of affairs by finally just flying the ensign in distress, but that display should be reserved for the actual time marshall law has been declared and true americans need the help of true americans.
whoever took PT's flag should not have stolen it, but simply invert it to it's proper position and lowered his Gadsen ensign. FWIW, i used to fly the Navy Jack, proudly until nut job tea partiers started thinking i was one of them. funny how symbols get hijacked.
1920SF said:
Sure it does. Both are SYMBOLS that people have passionate view of. Burning the flag or burning the bible are also symbols. Reacting to burning or other disrespectful action on the symbol is precisely why people do it. Overreacting, reacting irrationally puts people into a category that I tend not to affiliate with.
I don't disagree with your sentiment-I had just parsed this to a secular conversation about a symbol of our nation.bri said:
When it comes to religion I put that in a whole different category and generally view zealots of any faith with suspicion.
going to share my experience. While living in Tokyo we flew the American flag on a home made bamboo pole cut down and brought on top of the Disco. One sunny day a threesome of fighter jets flew over the house coming from the near base. After going over the house they circled back and flew over us again only this time one tipped his wings. My wife and I not only had goose bumps we had tears in our eyes. Living out of the US makes one appreciate even more the meaning of our flag. It deserves respect and not fucking bullshit political or personal statements.
Fly it in respect or don't fly it. Its that simple.
Jaime
Fly it in respect or don't fly it. Its that simple.
Jaime
bri said:
If a clergyman in Vatican City burns a bible, the two events are similar. Otherwise, the only correlation is frustration and fire.
Cheers,
Kennith
kennith said:
Nope, your analogy would be more like the president burning the flag which has never come up in the discussion.
Disrespecting a symbol of anything is something to get your goat and draw attention. By acknowledging it, you are validating what they have done.
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kennith said:
Burn a Muslim bible and have 5 million people in the middle east wanting your head on a stick while burning Chinese made American flags. Although I'm sure they've done worse things with their own bible, probably like wiping their ass with the pages.
A lot of people don't know which way the Arizona flag goes, and occasionally you'll see them upside down on the front of a car. I've asked a few people if they're in distress. When they ask why I tell them about the flag and which direction the sun rays go. Only one knew it was upside down.
If I saw PT with the flag upside down, I'd ask if he was in distress or needed help. If he tells me it's a political statement or whatever, I'd just leave it at that. I'm not a big fan of burning the US flag while hiding behind the protections it offers, but I do stand behind a person having the right to do it.
atriot:
bri said:
By irrational i mean i dont know if i could control my emotions well enough to not to do something stupid.
As far as the bible, im not a Christian so it wouldnt have the same effect as it would on a Christian.
If a movie showed the burning of a flag it would make me upset but i would look at the big "picture" as to its context.
bri said:
It is an example of an individual subject to and allied with principals symbolized by a defined and recognizable object.
Your response would be accurate if the Pope himself burned a Bible, but not a non-resident clergyman or person of Laity.
Cheers,
Kennith
>>>Your response would be accurate if the Pope himself burned a Bible,
>>>but not a non-resident clergyman or person of Laity.
"more like" is what I said. OK, your analogy is more like a member if the presidents staff burning a bible. Still my response is accurate and you are trying to qualify the discussion.
It's funny how you nitpick me, but don't nitpick yourself before you post.
My analogy of the bible and flag still applies, both are symbols that people are passionate about that people also symbolize through dissrespecting. If you do not see that or even deeper correlation, then sorry, I'll just disagree with you.
>>>but not a non-resident clergyman or person of Laity.
"more like" is what I said. OK, your analogy is more like a member if the presidents staff burning a bible. Still my response is accurate and you are trying to qualify the discussion.
It's funny how you nitpick me, but don't nitpick yourself before you post.
My analogy of the bible and flag still applies, both are symbols that people are passionate about that people also symbolize through dissrespecting. If you do not see that or even deeper correlation, then sorry, I'll just disagree with you.
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I'll speak for Gunny when I say if you want to truly find out what 'irrational' means then by all means burn a flag in front of him or me, or a lot of others on this forum. Leave it at that.
Since we're using analogies, try this one. A northern white person sees a cross burning and thinks 'that's offensive'. A 90 year old black man from the south sees a burning cross and has a whole different Emotional feeling. Seeing something that offends you deeply has different meanings to different people. Like I said before if the 'symbol' of America and the original American way of life doesn't mean as much to you as it does others you can't and won't understand.
Since we're using analogies, try this one. A northern white person sees a cross burning and thinks 'that's offensive'. A 90 year old black man from the south sees a burning cross and has a whole different Emotional feeling. Seeing something that offends you deeply has different meanings to different people. Like I said before if the 'symbol' of America and the original American way of life doesn't mean as much to you as it does others you can't and won't understand.
bri said:
If you mean to offer an United States citizen burning a flag, we must equate a citizen of Vatican City and direct subject of such regulation burning a Bible, if Bibles are to be featured in the discussion.
It was a flawed suggestion from the beginning. Vatican City flies a flag, just as the The United States. Burning a Bible is "more like" burning the U.S. Constitution than burning the U.S. Flag.
Of course there are correlations between desecration of the two objects. When not committed on equal terms, however, the events are dissimilar in symbolism, and the correlation extends no further than cause and result. Either the Vatican City Flag must be burned, or a print of the Constitution of The United States.
Regardless of the objects chosen, the actor must be a citizen of that particular sovereign state, be it ours or theirs.
Cheers,
Kennith
I fall into the same irrational catergory as Mike and Gunny, you burn a flag in front of me bad things will happen. Ask the protester that spit on my uniform and tried to rip my medals from my chest. His jaw should have healed by now.
Burn a bible I could honestly give a shit.
I believe in the Colors, I believe in what it stands for. I'm 2nd generation born in America in my family, I see what the ideals of this country have given to myself and extended family. My uncle gave his life in it's defense and honestly I would gladly lay down mine for the Colors and my family, The United States of America.
We do what we do not for a pay check or 3 hots and a cot, we do it for love of the Country and the ideal of what it can be if we all step up. I do what I do for my wife, daughter, family, friends and the Soldier next to me in the foxhole. What we do is the purist form of love and belief, we don't believe in a intangible, we believe in America and her citizens.
Burn a bible I could honestly give a shit.
I believe in the Colors, I believe in what it stands for. I'm 2nd generation born in America in my family, I see what the ideals of this country have given to myself and extended family. My uncle gave his life in it's defense and honestly I would gladly lay down mine for the Colors and my family, The United States of America.
We do what we do not for a pay check or 3 hots and a cot, we do it for love of the Country and the ideal of what it can be if we all step up. I do what I do for my wife, daughter, family, friends and the Soldier next to me in the foxhole. What we do is the purist form of love and belief, we don't believe in a intangible, we believe in America and her citizens.