Politics, flags, etc...

[bri]

I fall into the same irrational catergory as Mike and Gunny, you burn a flag in front of me bad things will happen. Ask the protester that spit on my uniform and tried to rip my medals from my chest. His jaw should have healed by now.

Burn a bible I could honestly give a shit.

I believe in the Colors, I believe in what it stands for. I'm 2nd generation born in America in my family, I see what the ideals of this country have given to myself and extended family. My uncle gave his life in it's defense and honestly I would gladly lay down mine for the Colors and my family, The United States of America.

We do what we do not for a pay check or 3 hots and a cot, we do it for love of the Country and the ideal of what it can be if we all step up. I do what I do for my wife, daughter, family, friends and the Soldier next to me in the foxhole. What we do is the purist form of love and belief, we don't believe in a intangible, we believe in America and her citizens.

"you burn a flag in front of me bad things will happen. Ask the protester that spit on my uniform and tried to rip my medals from my chest. His jaw should have healed by now."

Are we supposed to be impressed by this? Your purist remark and this sound more fanatic and fundamentalist than patriotic.

Don't get me wrong, I have more respect for people that have served our country than most people, but most of them that I have know are a lot more humble than youpost comes accross.

I'd never burn a flag or a bible or spit on anyone. I'd not overreact if I saw someone burning a flag or a bible unless I was in harm or protecting, and then I would still hope to be rational. To me the symbolism of what America is and stands for goes far beyond a cloth symbol.

Making something "bad happen" is a juvenile and not well thought out thing to do. It fuels their fire. Even you agree that it is irrational.

So if you have thought it out that much... should we as Americans promote a system or actions that contradict rational thought and are as fanatical and fundamentalist as the protestors and/or terrorists that choose to openly burn our sacred symbols?

 

[ArmyRover]

Nope not supposed to be impressed and I pointed out it's not rational, neither were his actions. Rationality doesn't always go hand in hand with the decision making process. Otherwise none of us would set foot in a combat zone. We wouldn't loose friends to things as irrational as jumping on a grenade to shield others from the blast or charging a position that is pouring lead at your position. None of these are rational acts no matter how you try to reason it. Life isn't always rational.

The flag is more than a flag to us, it represents something greater than ourselves, it to us is the living embodiment of the citizens of this great country. That's the part of it that most people don't understand.

As for being humble, read it anyway you want I was just trying to explain why I feel the way I do.

 

[kennith]

While I'm a bit uncomfortable with the illustration of some of ArmyRover's positions, there is one point to which I can agree, though not directly as written.

The last time someone dishonored me to a degree similar to spitting, I dislocated his shoulder and snapped his thumb in half.

People have a misguided impression that they can do whatever they want nowadays with no consequences. This is not true. "This ain't the 1800's", they say, "you can't do things like that anymore".

Bullshit. I can do whatever I want so long as I am prepared to accept any consequences that I fail to prevent or avoid. I'm very laid back and nearly impossible to anger, but that doesn't stop me from retaliation. I simply retaliate with a smile on my face.

Uniform or not, if someone pulls that shit on me, they are going to be hurt. Is it irrational? By my philosophy, it is not. It is in agreement with my written law of nature, part of the philosophy by which I live.

Would I hurt someone who desecrated the flag? No. That is not in accordance with my law, and the act is of no consequence to me, whether or not I find it offensive.

You can't expect complete safety all the time. Sooner or later, you are going to run into someone who has won't lose a wink of sleep over knocking you on your ass.

There are few capable people who would not respond to being spit upon, and there are few incapable people who don't wish they could.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[hafaday]

"you burn a flag in front of me bad things will happen. Ask the protester that spit on my uniform and tried to rip my medals from my chest. His jaw should have healed by now."

Are we supposed to be impressed by this? Your purist remark and this sound more fanatic and fundamentalist than patriotic.

Don't get me wrong, I have more respect for people that have served our country than most people, but most of them that I have know are a lot more humble than youpost comes accross.

I'd never burn a flag or a bible or spit on anyone. I'd not overreact if I saw someone burning a flag or a bible unless I was in harm or protecting, and then I would still hope to be rational. To me the symbolism of what America is and stands for goes far beyond a cloth symbol.

Making something "bad happen" is a juvenile and not well thought out thing to do. It fuels their fire. Even you agree that it is irrational.

So if you have thought it out that much... should we as Americans promote a system or actions that contradict rational thought and are as fanatical and fundamentalist as the protestors and/or terrorists that choose to openly burn our sacred symbols?

I've been trying to stay out of this.

Bri, I think what the guys are trying to say is, if someone tried to deface, burn or trash something that they (and myself) believe in. something irrational might/will happen. the same might apply to you, if theirs something that you believe wholeheartedly in and the role was reversed.

 

[ArmyRover]

Exactly thanks hafaday.

 

[bri]

I've been trying to stay out of this.

Bri, I think what the guys are trying to say is, if someone tried to deface, burn or trash something that they (and myself) believe in. something irrational might/will happen. the same might apply to you, if theirs something that you believe wholeheartedly in and the role was reversed.

Sorry, don't understand what you said that is any different that what was already said.

The same won't apply to me as I would act rationally.

I understand that it gets an emotional response for sure, but I do not understand why people would act out irrationally or make something bad happen.

You're stooping to their level, just making the situation worse. Danger and violence against someone are different, i.e. read Kennith's post.

 

[bri]

Nope not supposed to be impressed and I pointed out it's not rational, neither were his actions. Rationality doesn't always go hand in hand with the decision making process. Otherwise none of us would set foot in a combat zone. We wouldn't loose friends to things as irrational as jumping on a grenade to shield others from the blast or charging a position that is pouring lead at your position. None of these are rational acts no matter how you try to reason it. Life isn't always rational.

The flag is more than a flag to us, it represents something greater than ourselves, it to us is the living embodiment of the citizens of this great country. That's the part of it that most people don't understand.

As for being humble, read it anyway you want I was just trying to explain why I feel the way I do.

A person being spit on, badges being pulled off and other violent acts such as war are a lot different than a random act of burning a flag... which is what brought up the original comment on acting irrational.

It's very hard for me to believe, even if coming from a soldier, that the correct response to a burning flag is irrational violence. Isn't that kind of not democratic?

 

[msggunny]

It's very hard for me to believe, even if coming from a soldier, that the correct response to a burning flag is irrational violence. Isn't that kind of not democratic?

Did someone say that it was the correct response?

I know that an irrational response is wrong, which is why its irrational. I hope that I can stay rational in that situation but I know that it will be hard and maybe impossible. To echo what Kennith stated, I too am easy going and a friend to anyone and everyone. It takes a lot to anger me, but usually when i do get to that point I cant say that i wont get "irrational"

I can say, however, that I have never been confronted with this situation and hope that I never do. I hope that if i am ever confronted with that situation that I will maintain my rationality and think logically but at the end of the day i am just a hairless ape, like the rest of us humans, and sometimes primal urges take over.

 

[nosivad_bor]

Look to your ego. That is what motivates violent retribution from a non violent act.

Pity those people that disgrace your flag. Know they are ignorant. Forgive them. Love them. Be better than them.

 

[ArmyRover]

Did someone say that it was the correct response?

I know that an irrational response is wrong, which is why its irrational. I hope that I can stay rational in that situation but I know that it will be hard and maybe impossible. To echo what Kennith stated, I too am easy going and a friend to anyone and everyone. It takes a lot to anger me, but usually when i do get to that point I cant say that i wont get "irrational"

I can say, however, that I have never been confronted with this situation and hope that I never do. I hope that if i am ever confronted with that situation that I will maintain my rationality and think logically but at the end of the day i am just a hairless ape, like the rest of us humans, and sometimes primal urges take over.

Well said Gunny.

 

[msggunny]

It's very hard for me to believe, even if coming from a soldier, that the correct response to a burning flag is irrational violence. Isn't that kind of not democratic?

Forgot about that part,

There is no democracy in the military, sure those who wear the uniform of our country defend our democracy but there is no "voting" or debate about the way things are done.

This whole argument is purely hypothetical from my point of view. I have never been confronted by this situation, as I am sure the majority of us are in the same boat. Saying what someone may or may not do or what they should or shouldn't do based on a hypothetical situation is just that, hypothetical.

I can tell you that when I went into combat, all my training up and until then had been "hypothetical". I honestly didnt know what I would do when I was engaged by the enemy: shit my pants or react the way I was trained.

I reacted the way I was trained, which is the way I hope I will react if i am ever confronted with a "flag burning demonstration". I hope that I will maintain my sanity, look at it logically, understand that my friends died for these people to exercise their "rights", but I cant guarantee it. Just like I couldnt guarantee that i wouldn't shit my pants the first time I had mortars dropped next to me, hit a land mine, got shot at by snipers, rocketed blah blah blah.

 

[hafaday]

Sorry, don't understand what you said that is any different that what was already said.

The same won't apply to me as I would act rationally.

I understand that it gets an emotional response for sure, but I do not understand why people would act out irrationally or make something bad happen.

You're stooping to their level, just making the situation worse. Danger and violence against someone are different, i.e. read Kennith's post.

2 examples: rational or ill-rational (Not trying to call anyone out)?

http://discoweb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=53174 Inverted flag in his avatar, but changed accordingly.

http://discoweb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48021 To this day, I don't no how I kept it together. but the ill-rational was eating me up.

Maybe we're trying to say that, an issue like the inverted flag might start out rationally. But, VERY well could end ill-rationally.

That is all.

 

[Jake]

With Gunny, ArmyRover, et al. Don't burn a US flag in my sight unless you are properly disposing of it. My reaction would be preedictably poor, in regards to you. Not an internet tough guy, 5th generation US military and some things stand for a lot more that the sum of their material lists. Want to protest? Go for it, leave the fucking flag alone.

 

[crown14]

So how many Duke and UNC fans can I offend at URE??

ALL of them

 

[ptschram]

For many of you, the litmus test of love of country is military service.

Some of you know that I turned down postings to more than one of the military academies (once again, had I known then, what I know now...).

My personal litmus test is running for public office. I have held appointed positions in my county and have run for office multiple times.

Service to one's nation comes in many forms. Publically and vocally protesting-in whatever form it may take-is just as valid service to one's nation. Never forget that there are many, many countries where freeodm of speech is a foreigh idea that would be dealt with through execution.

 

[bri]

Forgot about that part,

There is no democracy in the military, sure those who wear the uniform of our country defend our democracy but there is no "voting" or debate about the way things are done.

This whole argument is purely hypothetical from my point of view. I have never been confronted by this situation, as I am sure the majority of us are in the same boat. Saying what someone may or may not do or what they should or shouldn't do based on a hypothetical situation is just that, hypothetical.

I can tell you that when I went into combat, all my training up and until then had been "hypothetical". I honestly didnt know what I would do when I was engaged by the enemy: shit my pants or react the way I was trained.

I reacted the way I was trained, which is the way I hope I will react if i am ever confronted with a "flag burning demonstration". I hope that I will maintain my sanity, look at it logically, understand that my friends died for these people to exercise their "rights", but I cant guarantee it. Just like I couldnt guarantee that i wouldn't shit my pants the first time I had mortars dropped next to me, hit a land mine, got shot at by snipers, rocketed blah blah blah.

So how were you trained to react to a flag burning?

My point about democracy is that by representing it, defending it and also spreading it, you should practice it, acting irrationally and making "something bad happen" due to a flag burning seems to not be very democratic and just hurts the cause and fuels their fire.

 

[jim-00-4.6]

my US Flag has gold fringe stuff around it.
Looks nice, but not technically correct.
It flies on days when I'm at home, comes in at night or if it starts raining.

I understand the upside-down distress thing.
I understand the "protected speech" part of burning a flag.

I do not believe I am in such distress that my flag should be upside-down, so mine isn't.
I wouldn't burn a flag, but realize some people think they need to do so.

You want to burn a flag? Go ahead.
I think you're a dick, but that's my opinion.
You should be prepared to get the strong opinions you are trying to evoke.
You may not be entirely happy with someone else's opinion of your actions.

Gentlemen, thank you for your service.

 

[ptschram]

my US Flag has gold fringe stuff around it.
Looks nice, but not technically correct.

IIRC, that is a Maritime or Admiralty flag.

The real wackos would tell you that if an oath is sworn beneath an Admiralty flag, it's not valid. Those are real wackos!

 

[AMCM Disco]

So how were you trained to react to a flag burning?

Bri - he never said that he was trained to react a certain way to a flag burning, only that he would have a strong personal reaction.

When in the line of duty we will perform as trained and protect our assets as required. When confronted with an asshole protester that gets into one's face, that exceeds the reasonable extent of one's free speech and becomes assault - if a protester invades private property or reasonable bounds of a person (or persons) in public in order to deliver their protest message (flag burning, spitting on uniform, displays that inturrupt funerals, etc) then they exceed their rights for free speech.

We all, as members of the military, know and understand fully the extent of what that free speech is, and willingly put our lives on the line for that right (no matter how right or wrong we believe that to be). However, there is also a part of that free speech which is the inherent responsibility of understanding the boundaries of that free speech - what is protected and what become assault, slander, etc.

Gunny said (and I believe it was echoed with many others) that they all take in and evaluate the situation in context, which is where the elite training of a military person allows for split second decision making and reactions will aid them in making the best response to the situation (whether it is respecting the 'protest' or smashing someone's teeth in).

atriot:

 

[ptschram]

if a protester invades private property or reasonable bounds of a person (or persons) in public in order to deliver their protest message (flag burning, spitting on uniform, displays that inturrupt funerals, etc) then they exceed their rights for free speech.

How does my destroying MY personal property for whatever reason exceed your definition of free speech?

When do my personal property rights and free speech rights become an issue for you to use battery? I have a right to free speech, you do not have a right to batter me unless I have struck you first.

Some of you guys define freedom in a curious fashion.