Seattle 5-oh punches woman for jay-walking

[SCSL]

SCSL, the context of the original crime has nothing to do with the context of the crime of assaulting a police officer. That is why she was punched and rightly so.

This is where we (respectfully) disagree. It is important to separate the resisting from the original crime. While the behavior of resisting in this case appears disgusting, it is critically important that we understand the entirety of events - the jay-walking nonsense.

Similarly, we see this dynamic repeat itself with a myriad of "crimes" and "precrimes" in our society today -- far more so than we ever saw this 20 years ago. Another example are airports, where absurdities abound. Absurdities are accepted largely, though not entirely, due to the fear of reprisal. When we obey absurd laws because we fear a police force that will hook us up without thought or context and leave us in jail while a judge decides our fate, we are lost as a society.

 

[SCSL]

If we have a law that is supported by the local constituents, enforce it.

If it's not supported, do away with it. There is a process to do so, but few exercise the right to directly influence legislation.

I'm curious as to the process by which a citizen appeals to the state for repeal of regulation. Perhaps you are aware of some process that has thus far eluded me? I am unaware of many regulatory regimes that have been overturned based on the lack of support by citizens. You are of course aware that the vast majority of day-to-day regulation is enacted with little or no citizen oversight, often by appointed (rather than elected) officials?

Here's just one small example of this dynamic:

http://mises.org/daily/3570\

And then one day the stop sign was gone.

It was the very stop sign one block from my house that was oddly stationed at a low-traffic, 3-way intersection, tempting every driver to slow down but not come to a complete stop.

How the city cleaned up on that one! I have personally coughed up in excess of $1,000 for tickets there, one time receiving two tickets in as many days. This sign was even the reason that I spent a day in jail for failing to fork over when the judge said I should.

I'm not alone: 93% of the drivers failed to come to a complete stop. Even so, I'm routinely lectured that my job as a citizen is to do precisely as I'm told. I've learned to habitually stop completely, even when the place looks like a ghost town with no cars anywhere in view.

Then one day the stop sign vanished.

What happened here? Did the cops finally get all the citizens trained to stop and thereby dissipate their opportunity for rents? Was there just no more money to be made from the disobedient?

Do I get a refund? How about compensation for the day I spent in jail? What about everyone else?

The local government must have extracted tens of thousands of dollars before good sense overcame our overlords and they decided to relent to reality. But no, there will not be compensation. The law changed its mind, and we are supposed to just deal with it. Now I must rehabituate myself to breaking ? I mean keeping ? the law.

One day, I'm jailed for failing to stop. Presumably, I could now get a ticket for stopping, since surely there is a law against suddenly stopping on a public road for no reason other than some vague memory than one had to in the past.

What is evil one day is mandatory the next.

(continued at link)

 

[roverMc]

It was the Stop Sign Fairy, she came and got it. And no that person will not be reimbursed for the fines.

 

[knewsom]

When we obey absurd laws because we fear a police force that will hook us up without thought or context and leave us in jail while a judge decides our fate, we are lost as a society.

I completely agree with this, and as such refuse to obey absurd laws - that's how my hippie parents raised me, and I think they were absolutely right to do so. I have had to deal with the consequences of my disobedience in the past, but that is the cost of civil disobedience. In fact, many absurd laws are simply not enforced. Sadly, not enough.

...but Jaywalking is NOT an absurd law, at least, not in the location in question (at least, according to Tugela).

 

[Tugela]

So, Tugela, just to be clear:

Punched by the agents of the state = ok

Stomped by the agents of the state = not ok

And you would like to employ the blunt force of state to protect the citizenry from errant citizens choosing to cross the street they paid for at the time of their own rational determination. Anything less than complete, limp submission to such enforcement may automatically and irrevokably escalate the situation from a ticket to a punch (or, potentially, a stomp)?

SCSL, I believe this to be a narrow interpretation of what I said and of what happened. My statement was that the cop's response was unnecessary. There were probably other steps he could have taken short of punching the woman, but I see two very different situations here.

In the case of the jaywalking woman, she unquestionably committed an infraction, the cop saw her do it, and she attacked him.

In the case of the stomping, the stompee had nothing to do with the crime and the actions of the officer were unprovoked.

I completely disagree with your statement about submission. The woman didn't have to instantly lie down on the ground with her hands behind her back ready to receive handcuffs. She could have contested the infraction a number of ways without assaulting the officer.

I will remind you of some wisdom shared by Obi Wan Kenobi:

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

 

[roverover]

I'm curious as to the process by which a citizen appeals to the state for repeal of regulation. Perhaps you are aware of some process that has thus far eluded me? I am unaware of many regulatory regimes that have been overturned based on the lack of support by citizens. You are of course aware that the vast majority of day-to-day regulation is enacted with little or no citizen oversight, often by appointed (rather than elected) officials?

Here's just one small example of this dynamic:

http://mises.org/daily/3570\

And then one day the stop sign was gone.

It was the very stop sign one block from my house that was oddly stationed at a low-traffic, 3-way intersection, tempting every driver to slow down but not come to a complete stop.

How the city cleaned up on that one! I have personally coughed up in excess of $1,000 for tickets there, one time receiving two tickets in as many days. This sign was even the reason that I spent a day in jail for failing to fork over when the judge said I should.

I'm not alone: 93% of the drivers failed to come to a complete stop. Even so, I'm routinely lectured that my job as a citizen is to do precisely as I'm told. I've learned to habitually stop completely, even when the place looks like a ghost town with no cars anywhere in view.

Then one day the stop sign vanished.

What happened here? Did the cops finally get all the citizens trained to stop and thereby dissipate their opportunity for rents? Was there just no more money to be made from the disobedient?

Do I get a refund? How about compensation for the day I spent in jail? What about everyone else?

The local government must have extracted tens of thousands of dollars before good sense overcame our overlords and they decided to relent to reality. But no, there will not be compensation. The law changed its mind, and we are supposed to just deal with it. Now I must rehabituate myself to breaking ? I mean keeping ? the law.

One day, I'm jailed for failing to stop. Presumably, I could now get a ticket for stopping, since surely there is a law against suddenly stopping on a public road for no reason other than some vague memory than one had to in the past.

What is evil one day is mandatory the next.

(continued at link)

There out to get you man ........ I hope you have your tin foil hat on.

You should join the 1%.............but alas they too have rules. What to do???

 

[Ballah06]

There out to get you man ........ I hope you have your tin foil hat on.

You should join the 1%.............but alas they too have rules. What to do???

Time to be a revolutionary, just like Lenin....

 

[ptschram]

I'm curious as to the process by which a citizen appeals to the state for repeal of regulation. Perhaps you are aware of some process that has thus far eluded me?

It's called the ballot box. Get your name on the ballot, raise Hell. Make those in power uncomfortable. IF you get elected, you have all the power in the world to make life Hell for the appointed bureaucrat who passed the law/regulation/code/ordinance you disagreed with.

If you don't get elected, write letters every day to those who have been elected, attend public meetings where the elected folks are, make them uncomfortable. Write letters to the editor. Be the squeaky wheel.

The problem in this situation is not the jay-walking, it was how the citizens responded to contact with law enforcement. Had they said "Oops, sorry, I won't do it again, I didn't realize it was a big deal, much less against the law." we wouldn't be having this enlightening discussion.

I'm the first one to protest when a LEO overstep the bounds of their authority, but we as citizens have a responsibility to at least be civil when contacted by Law Enforcement.

 

[ptschram]

She could have contested the infraction a number of ways without assaulting the officer.

I will remind you of some wisdom shared by Obi Wan Kenobi:

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

As much as I hate to say this, the correct venue for contesting the infraction is in the court room, or the prosecutor's office, not on the street with the LEO.

 

[Flip]

Here's a link with a little more background (still not the whole story). As much as I believe the situation could have been handled better I don't condemn the LEO because he handled a situation as best as he thought possible and controlled a situation that could have gotten much worse than it was because of the "peanut gallery". It also turns out both females had previous records one of which would appear to be assault on another officer as well.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012122660_coppunch16m.html

 

[Tugela]

I'm curious as to the process by which a citizen appeals to the state for repeal of regulation. Perhaps you are aware of some process that has thus far eluded me? I am unaware of many regulatory regimes that have been overturned based on the lack of support by citizens. You are of course aware that the vast majority of day-to-day regulation is enacted with little or no citizen oversight, often by appointed (rather than elected) officials?

Here in Washington we have a citizen initiative process. Any registered voter can apply to put a measure on the ballot. There is some required number of minimum signatures you have to get on a petition before the measure will go on a ballot. This process has been used successfully by anti-tax advocates to repeal taxes voted on by the legislature.

 

[p m]

And then one day the stop sign was gone.

That's a good one.

I've been ticketed by a cop claiming I made an illegal left turn. Had to take a day off work to go to the site, photograph the absence of any signs prohibiting the turn, bring it to the court, pay $10 fee, and have my ticket dismissed.
I really wanted to have my day off paid by the city...

Kinda like the old Soviet joke -
- Sir, my daughter is going to get married, can I get a raise or a bonus?
- Hmm... Here's a "No stopping" sign for you, for a week.

 

[Rugbier]

Trevor,

Are ride along allowed to pack and interact if needed?

Send me an invite, :victory:

SCSL, are you bitter about a speeding ticket or something? I don't see what was wrong with the officers actions. He should have had her under control a little faster, but he didn't cross any line. You have to get people under control in that situation. You have to go harder than the other person in order to win. It's a dangerous situation when you have two people on you at once. What if that other female had pulled his gun out of his holster while he was dealing with the other? What if two or three other people in the crowd figured they would jump in too? Should he have stood there and allowed the women to treat him like that?

I have had a women do something similiar with a speeding ticket. She refused to sign. I explained to her that if she didnt sign I would have to arrest her and take her in front of the magistrate. She said fuck you I ain't signing. OK your under arrest. The fight was on. In the end she had a $2500 bond because she told the magistrate to go fuck herself, a charge of resisting arrest, and still had the speeding ticket for 16 mph over the limit at $5 for each mile. All she had to do was sign the ticket and if she really thought she wasn't speeding then tell the judge. Now i'm the asshole white cop who arrested her for no reason that she tells all her friends about. When people disagree with me am I supposed to just say ok and walk the other direction? or am I supposed to enforce the law?

This Police state you are talking about is just civilized society. Its the way it has to be to keep us from turning New York City into Mogadishu. The problem these days is that to many people think the rules don't apply to them. They think that they can do what ever they want and damn the person that stands in their way.

If anyone would like to get the real picture of society that I see everyday then I can email you a ride along from and you can come and see for youself. Seriously I invite anyone who wants to come. I'm in Charlottesville.

 

[adamsclarke]

What I saw was a woman resisting arrest, a woman assault a police officer and the officer respond according to his training. Until you understand the importance of officer safety, you'll never truly understand that isn't something he wanted to happen.

Until all of the facts come out in court and what the PC was for the stop ( I doubt it was simple J-walking) it's ridiculous to make a broad statement about the officer, and LEOs in general. i saw plenty of others there that could have been in some trouble if they had been asked to get out of there.

We have officer discretion is a lot of what we do and some laws state what shall be done, but we are there in enforce the law, not make it....so I think your gripe should be on the attorneys and appleate courts that write the laws.

i would have warned and then sprayed them....but I guarantee that would have hurt worse but gotten a faster compliance with the commands.

 

[p m]

....so I think your gripe should be on the attorneys and appleate courts that write the laws.

Isn't that Steve's point?

 

[group captain mandrake]

I did not know that courts had the authority to write laws.

 

[adamsclarke]

Isn't that Steve's point?

No, i think that may be part of the point, but since the thread started as "look what this cop did"...it's biased more towards LEOs and what SCSL think is appropriate.

If I am wrong about the intent of the thread, I stand corrected...but you still don;t have enough facts to cast judgement on the officer or law enforcement in general one way or another.

As LEOs, we enforce the laws. It can;t get anymore simple. J-walking in that spot is a big deal apparently, so rather than see people get hit by cars and loose their lives, that officer chose to enforce the law.
It's no different than giving a ticket for littering. It's a hefty fine, but in my opinion, worth it because it keeps the area where I live and work free from litter....without it....it'll end up like a dump. That law is there for a reason, no matter how ridiculous you may think it may be.

 

[adamsclarke]

I did not know that courts had the authority to write laws.

Just part of the process...legislative branch writes them, judicial branch interprets them...and executive branch enforces them.
Law enforcement is under the exec. branch, lawyers legislative etc...
Every July 1, new laws come out in the code book...like last july when texting while driving became an offense in VA etc...
Seem like a stupid law like J-walking does? Ever seen an accident with fatalities from texting? Yup...it happens like peolpe die from J-walking and officers die from being assaulted.

 

[p m]

Adam, let's be honest. LEOs do have their opinion on the laws, and it does affect their willingness to enforce one or another.

Jaywalking... give me a break. The fuckers with cell phones behind the wheel, on the other hand, are more of a threat to this country than Al Qaeda.

 

[gmookher]

damn seattle got a situation brewing there..